Author Topic: Timestop nerf  (Read 14540 times)

Arawn

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2016, 04:44:05 PM »
It's important to keep in mind that it's all in service of the RP. You can use TS/MS discourteously just like it could also come at the end of long RP and conflict. The PvP rules don't discern between tactics except to say that it must always be subordinate to RP. We happen to think that tweaking the spell will lead to more RP, so it seems a pretty easy decision.
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TheGrinningHound

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2016, 05:00:30 PM »
It's definitely gray, but it's still not abuse while it's within the rules. Nothing is abuse while it's within the rules. Now, keep in mind here, I'm using the phrase "Within the rules." There are instances in which a character may use Time Stop and deadly combinations against another character and it can be against the rules.

Such as using it to exploit something. Not to have a strong mechanical combination, but to physically exploit the system. That'd be against the rules, but that's also just an exploit. If your opinion of something is that it's too powerful that's fine, but to then consider it an exploit simply because it is powerful isn't the right definition of an exploit. And certainly not a rulebreak. And just because someone can Time Stop and destroy someone without any due cause (Which would be a breach in rules) doesn't mean that it's always used that way. Doesn't mean that it has to be.

It basically comes down to this: Timestop is extremely strong. Many players are uncomfortable with how strong it is. Many players feel it is unfair, and that when it hits it isn't very compelling Rp wise.

All of these statements are fair to say. It has to do with balance, it acknowledges that the opinions are player perceptions. But what it doesn't do is unnecessarily consider something that's too powerful as something that is breaking the rules. To say that it's abusive unfairly calls the players who use the tools available to them as being rule-breaking, when what you're meaning to say is that it's overpowered and you probably shouldn't be using it in that way.

But in the end, that's just your opinion, and not a reflection of the rules. And certainly not something you can force another player to abide by.

Luckily, it is an opinion that many share, and that's why the changes are happening. But it's dangerous to start mixing up the difference between calling something overpowered, or something exploitative. There's a very important difference.


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Also, since both Vampire Mist Form and Hide in Plain Sight were referenced, it should be noted that both of these abilities are awarded by acquiring approval from the staff. It's not something that's given to just anyone, and it's given to players with the understanding that it will not be overused or used inappropriately. Which is why they are requested classes or abilities. We want to have them in the game, but we understand that they can be too powerful when used without reasonable restrictions-- and the only reasonable restrictions desired were to have the player "use it responsibly." Which is why they're vetted in a request. Timestop requires no such request. Any mage with enough time can get there.

From an administrative point of view, we can't really be upset at players who use what they have fairly acquired, as long as it remains within the rules. Which is why the staff has to be on their toes when it comes to player balance, and on their toes when it comes to players actually exploiting something.

Syl

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2016, 05:33:30 PM »
You Are right you Cabot be upset with a player using what they have fairly acquired. That said, didn't mean it isn't abusive just because it is "within the rules."  And As mentioned it is a gray area, but as others stated also and even in real life. with gear power comes great responsibility.

You Are now a level 20 wizard.  You Can cast let's say 4 time stops, each one you can cast 2 maybe 3 spells. at Your target. opps he didn't die better refresh that time stop and finish him off.

It's Like shooting fish in a barrel not really satisfying or enjoyable  either end.

And I have heard of vampires getting in trouble for spamming  must form or whatever makes them vanish from sight, and reappear. And This is also why HIPS now has a cool down timer and why it is one of the hardest PrCs to get because HIPS could easily be abused.

However, there was no rule against using what is in your arsenal be it HIPS, mist form. or time stop.

So the last I'm going to say I've already said it. if One knows it is powerful but continues to use it without restraint can be seen as abusing power. like a guard using his status to get things is abusing his power.

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TheGrinningHound

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2016, 06:06:55 PM »
Vampires and Shadowdancers do get in trouble for misusing their abilities, absolutely. But they're given direction before hand on how to use them, and are entrusted to use it properly through a request process. This is qualified as abuse because they were specifically instructed not to do these things from an authority.

With Time Stop, there is no such instruction. No rules saying a player has to use it a certain way. There are actually rules (Though they're soft rules because it's a complex ability) on abusing Hips and Mist Form, and all of that is covered and done in the request process (Which is why it exists in the first place).

I agree with your sentiments though, Syl. And I agree with many of the players who believe that Time Stop is too powerful. It's just the way in which we talk about these things can have a serious impact on the community as a whole. We need to not try to target the players who simply use the tools given to them, and instead try to work with the staff to see changes made to the broken system instead.


Pav

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2016, 07:24:15 PM »
How is Timestop OP?

Night of Reod

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2016, 08:50:15 PM »
How is Timestop OP?

 My problem with Timestop is that it creates scenarios that can pretty much play only one way.

 Assuming a level 18 caster that can cast Timestop twice, one of the many things you can do with Timestop that has no counterplay is just spamming Horrid Wilting on your target. If you are hasted, including the Haste cast time, you can get 3 to 10 spells in one Timestop I believe, though I have seen 6 spells cast in one Timestop for certain so I will base my example on that. Assuming the same caster can cast Horrid Wilting three times, and assuming the target saves every time, that is 121 magical damage done to multiple targets on average, and since it is magical damage it pretty much effects almost everything to full effect. We have 7 more spells to go before the second Timestop runs out, and that is after deducting the second Timestop casting. Assuming the same caster uses Horrid Wilting scrolls for the rest of the time, which are surprisingly common as one of my characters managed to get 20 of them and sold some on top of it in just over a month, that is another 180 unblockable damage or so, assuming the target saves every time again. Of course a level 8th spell cast by a level 18 caster, who presumably also has DC feats, is not really easy to resist every time, and there are other spell options as well, this is just one example.

 My point is, Timestop allows scenarios in which there is no counterplay possible, whether it is in a PvP or PvE situation. With enough preparation, it can be employed as an "I win" button that has no counterplay once you are caught in the Timestop, and I personally consider that unfun and overpowered.

Edit: The scenario mentioned can be stopped with the Shadow Shield spell, now that I think of it, but that is only employed by PCs as far as I know, and not by very many of them. And even then it is not hard to squeeze a few greater dispelling spells or scrolls out to get rid of it, especially since you are likely to need significantly less damage than maximum you can get to take down someone who is capable of casting Shadow Shield.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 09:04:14 PM by Night of Reod »

Weyland

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2016, 01:26:12 AM »
Or it can be stopped with spell resistance.

Did the server experience a problem with timestop before this decision was made?  I didn't see that mentioned.

If the sole reason is for "bringing it closer to its Pen & Paper version", is that really enough justification?

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2016, 01:31:42 AM »
Or it can be stopped with spell resistance.

Did the server experience a problem with timestop before this decision was made?  I didn't see that mentioned.

If the sole reason is for "bringing it closer to its Pen & Paper version", is that really enough justification?
The answer to the first question seems to vary depending on whether or not an individual considers employing a tactic that isn't against any rules to be abusive or not.  I don't believe that the change is only to do with making the spell more representative of it's PnP counterpart.



APorg

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2016, 05:38:26 AM »
The pre-nerf version was evidently over-powered.

The old NWN version lasts 9 seconds and let you cast any offensive spells you wanted.

The PnP version lasts 1d4+1 rounds (12 to 30 seconds) but restricts what spells are effective in that time.

The pre-nerf version combined the freedom of the old NWN version with the duration of the PnP version. There's no argument it wasn't overpowered; hence why this change has been brewing for two years. In fact, probably longer.
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Jeebs

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2016, 03:06:14 PM »
It wouldn't be the first time a spell was altered to fit more closely to the PnP version. I don't doubt that some feathers will be ruffled, but people will adapt and accept it in time, I'm sure. Just like they did in the past. I remember a lot of folks were mad about the changes to the Protection vs. Alignment spells at first, but now folks have adjusted their tactics to work with the changes. This will undoubtedly be the case again.

Arawn

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2016, 03:14:48 PM »
Or it can be stopped with spell resistance.

Did the server experience a problem with timestop before this decision was made?  I didn't see that mentioned.

If the sole reason is for "bringing it closer to its Pen & Paper version", is that really enough justification?
The answer to the first question seems to vary depending on whether or not an individual considers employing a tactic that isn't against any rules to be abusive or not.  I don't believe that the change is only to do with making the spell more representative of it's PnP counterpart.

This doesn't follow. Something can be a problem without being an abuse. Abuse is a problem but so is balance, and Timestop's use in PvP was unbalanced.
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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2016, 03:30:41 PM »
Or it can be stopped with spell resistance.

Did the server experience a problem with timestop before this decision was made?  I didn't see that mentioned.

If the sole reason is for "bringing it closer to its Pen & Paper version", is that really enough justification?
The answer to the first question seems to vary depending on whether or not an individual considers employing a tactic that isn't against any rules to be abusive or not.  I don't believe that the change is only to do with making the spell more representative of it's PnP counterpart.

This doesn't follow. Something can be a problem without being an abuse. Abuse is a problem but so is balance, and Timestop's use in PvP was unbalanced.

Agreed, but it was brought up as players who used it were abusive and discourteous, instead of pointing out how the spell was unbalanced.

Arawn

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2016, 03:35:08 PM »
Or it can be stopped with spell resistance.

Did the server experience a problem with timestop before this decision was made?  I didn't see that mentioned.

If the sole reason is for "bringing it closer to its Pen & Paper version", is that really enough justification?
The answer to the first question seems to vary depending on whether or not an individual considers employing a tactic that isn't against any rules to be abusive or not.  I don't believe that the change is only to do with making the spell more representative of it's PnP counterpart.

This doesn't follow. Something can be a problem without being an abuse. Abuse is a problem but so is balance, and Timestop's use in PvP was unbalanced.

Agreed, but it was brought up as players who used it were abusive and discourteous, instead of pointing out how the spell was unbalanced.

I think it is fair to say that it has been used in a discourteous way in the past, but I agree that arguing that it is abusive (when it is permitted by the rules) is distracting to the main point of discussion. I have already asked that everyone try to adopt a more productive tone. Let's keep the discussion on track.
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Calliope

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2016, 04:23:40 PM »
Casts timestop on thread.


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NecropolisV

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2016, 07:44:54 AM »
Timestop for single player, or purely dungeon bashing enviroments is awesome. In a multiplayer enviroment with pvp? Not so awesome. While the spell itself was indeed very useful for making some dungeons more manageable, in pvp it is just purely unfair, as literally, it is already possible with a mage to obliterate other classes with much ease, even without timestop at all, the near assured damage output of some spells, especially if used in the right order or repetition with the right feats can kill nearly any pc already giving them maybe a couple rounds of swinging on you- who is probably at that level buffed with so many spells they certainly won't be able to kill you without some measure of luck before you can annihilate them. Timestop nerf changes very little in the  true power of a mage in pvp -really- only giving the enemy a chance, even if somewhat slim to fight back before you cast the right spells and they are dust. Especially considering how powerful some of the new spells are when combined with metamagic, or used in repetition and proper order.

Honestly, I think we could do without the timestop spell -at all-, BUT, seeing it as a defensive spell is fine as well really, only now instead of being able to use it to crush someone without resistance, you use it to assure your escape almost -every- time if escape is even necessary. Someone beats you down? Timestop, heal potion (the amount of hp those babies restore, its as good as the original spell for a mage), cast maybe a haste, maybe put up another buff that went down- Continue devastation. In trouble again? Repeat. Or if you simply don't want to put up with someone who is charging at you, Timestop, expeditious retreat, gone. No one's catching you. Timestop may not be an instant win button anymore, but it is still very close to an assured escape for any smart and prepared mage. My own Necromancer Adrian Von Viklov had a fine collection of timestop scrolls, and I hate to say it, but I did indeed use them to instant win several pvp's.. It was just too OP as it was.

My points are. The spell is definitely not ruined, it's just been downgraded from an instant win button in pvp, to a still extremely useful and viable emergency button to fix whatever needs fixing, or a near guaranteed great head start in escaping something.

I do lament the loss of power for dungeon bashing, buuuuut, then again I'm sure I am not the only person who will be -overjoyed- that certain horrific spawns won't be able to timestop me and nuke the crap out of me (I vaguely recall a timestop-hellball combo, among other spawns that make brilliant FUBAR use of timestop) without me being able to act in defense at all. Our downgrade, is the enemies downgrade ^_^. I don't argue against however, that some dungeons certainly seem like they required the original timestop, even if we know deep down they truly don't- Still seems like they did, and it certainly takes mages down a notch in being able to dish out some much needed pain to a spawn or boss in said dungeons that if you do not take care of effectively, will chew your party up, and spit them into a blender and make an adventurer smoothie. Then again, DM's and Devs know what they are doing, if somethings become -honestly- impossible to do without original timestop, they will adjust to make it possible i'm sure (Unless you really are just not meant to succeed in killing that said thing, and you should reconsider trying to next time)

« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 07:48:16 AM by NecropolisV »
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gainreduction

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2016, 08:30:09 AM »
Timestop for single player, or purely dungeon bashing enviroments is awesome. In a multiplayer enviroment with pvp? Not so awesome. While the spell itself was indeed very useful for making some dungeons more manageable, in pvp it is just purely unfair, as literally, it is already possible with a mage to obliterate other classes with much ease, even without timestop at all, the near assured damage output of some spells, especially if used in the right order or repetition with the right feats can kill nearly any pc already giving them maybe a couple rounds of swinging on you- who is probably at that level buffed with so many spells they certainly won't be able to kill you without some measure of luck before you can annihilate them. Timestop nerf changes very little in the  true power of a mage in pvp -really- only giving the enemy a chance, even if somewhat slim to fight back before you cast the right spells and they are dust. Especially considering how powerful some of the new spells are when combined with metamagic, or used in repetition and proper order.

Honestly, I think we could do without the timestop spell -at all-, BUT, seeing it as a defensive spell is fine as well really, only now instead of being able to use it to crush someone without resistance, you use it to assure your escape almost -every- time if escape is even necessary. Someone beats you down? Timestop, heal potion (the amount of hp those babies restore, its as good as the original spell for a mage), cast maybe a haste, maybe put up another buff that went down- Continue devastation. In trouble again? Repeat. Or if you simply don't want to put up with someone who is charging at you, Timestop, expeditious retreat, gone. No one's catching you. Timestop may not be an instant win button anymore, but it is still very close to an assured escape for any smart and prepared mage. My own Necromancer Adrian Von Viklov had a fine collection of timestop scrolls, and I hate to say it, but I did indeed use them to instant win several pvp's.. It was just too OP as it was.

My points are. The spell is definitely not ruined, it's just been downgraded from an instant win button in pvp, to a still extremely useful and viable emergency button to fix whatever needs fixing, or a near guaranteed great head start in escaping something.

I do lament the loss of power for dungeon bashing, buuuuut, then again I'm sure I am not the only person who will be -overjoyed- that certain horrific spawns won't be able to timestop me and nuke the crap out of me (I vaguely recall a timestop-hellball combo, among other spawns that make brilliant FUBAR use of timestop) without me being able to act in defense at all. Our downgrade, is the enemies downgrade ^_^. I don't argue against however, that some dungeons certainly seem like they required the original timestop, even if we know deep down they truly don't- Still seems like they did, and it certainly takes mages down a notch in being able to dish out some much needed pain to a spawn or boss in said dungeons that if you do not take care of effectively, will chew your party up, and spit them into a blender and make an adventurer smoothie. Then again, DM's and Devs know what they are doing, if somethings become -honestly- impossible to do without original timestop, they will adjust to make it possible i'm sure (Unless you really are just not meant to succeed in killing that said thing, and you should reconsider trying to next time)

+1

APorg

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2016, 08:37:09 AM »
People focus mostly on casters, but it's not just them who benefited from over-powered Time Stop; as anyone who's been subjected to a sneak attack gank from Time Stop knows
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TheGrinningHound

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2016, 12:28:20 PM »
The only problem I'm seeing is that with the increased duration a mage can stack offensive ticking spells to do more damage to a wider area than he was ever able to do before.

This kills one deadly combination, but enables others to be even more deadly.

Arawn

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2016, 12:41:40 PM »
The only problem I'm seeing is that with the increased duration a mage can stack offensive ticking spells to do more damage to a wider area than he was ever able to do before.

This kills one deadly combination, but enables others to be even more deadly.

We're not increasing the duration. This is the current duration.
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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2016, 12:52:01 PM »
I believe the duration remains unchanged at 1d4+1 rounds, so there isn't more threat than there was before -it's certainly less. It's also much more difficult to use persistent spells around allies than say, chain lightning or IGMS, so I don't think there's a concern with mages being deadlier than before.

The adjusted spell mirrors PnP, I think a further nerf to the duration is completely unnecessary. If we're holding true to PnP standards, it's important to remember that we're talking about a spell on the equivalent level of something like Wish, which has the power to alter reality - given at a bit more cost. I'd also note this version of timestop is much more useful in PnP, as you have a lot more options on spells to compliment (i.e.: using wall of force to give a whole party a better chance of escape). There was some merit for timestop in its previous form due to the limitations in spells for nwn, although that was alleviated some with the spell update and I understand the concern with the old timestop not promoting much in the way of rp or storytelling.

On a side note, however - I would state one thing. People have hammered on how 'not fun' it is for a mage to use timestop in pvp, though I've seen many more instances of a warrior running up and knockdown-spamming an unprepared mage to death than I have a Mage going timestop crazy. You certainly have a little better chance at surviving a knock-down fest, but the argument of an enjoyable pvp is a two way street.

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2016, 01:20:26 PM »
On a side note, however - I would state one thing. People have hammered on how 'not fun' it is for a mage to use timestop in pvp, though I've seen many more instances of a warrior running up and knockdown-spamming an unprepared mage to death than I have a Mage going timestop crazy. You certainly have a little better chance at surviving a knock-down fest, but the argument of an enjoyable pvp is a two way street.

This is absolutely true. In my opinion, this is far worse, because it's an option available so early, you don't need to learn it, and at least you can prep spell resistances beforehand for the spells a wizard will use while you're timestopped.

I really wish knockdown would be rethought. Maybe replaced with called shot, if we got them free.

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2016, 03:14:42 PM »
Ooooh, my bad! I thought it felt longer on this server. Disregard my concerns then!

APorg

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2016, 03:52:28 PM »
Well the maximum duration is 5 rounds i.e. 30 seconds -- which certainly feels like an eternity if you're a captivate audience to your own downfall :P
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Night of Reod

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2016, 04:48:51 PM »
On a side note, however - I would state one thing. People have hammered on how 'not fun' it is for a mage to use timestop in pvp, though I've seen many more instances of a warrior running up and knockdown-spamming an unprepared mage to death than I have a Mage going timestop crazy. You certainly have a little better chance at surviving a knock-down fest, but the argument of an enjoyable pvp is a two way street.

This is absolutely true. In my opinion, this is far worse, because it's an option available so early, you don't need to learn it, and at least you can prep spell resistances beforehand for the spells a wizard will use while you're timestopped.

I really wish knockdown would be rethought. Maybe replaced with called shot, if we got them free.

The issue here is that there is counterplay for this. The fighter has to, presumably, close distance before he is able to do that, which gives a mage time to try and get away or cast a spell such as Hold Monster, Power Word Stun or Greater Sanctuary before he is overwhelmed in physical combat, and if it an ambush, that is what ambushes are for. With old Time Stop, however, once the spell was cast, which you could do at range and effect a huge area, even outside of vision range I believe, there was nothing more to be done. That is what makes it "unfun," there is really not much counterplay against old Time Stop. Even a prepared opponent can be taken down quite easily with it, without the use of any dispel of any kind, as I previously mentioned with the Horrid Wilting spam strategy. I think the key difference here between the two scenarios, and what makes one completely "unfun," is complete lack of counterplay. Knockdown spam can certainly be frustrating and annoying, but there is a play to be made against it.

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Re: Timestop nerf
« Reply #74 on: November 03, 2016, 05:47:07 PM »
There's a difference of scale, but old Time Stop spam and Knockdown spam are the same kind of beast: lock down tactics. DnD PnP generally makes lock down tactics very expensive to attain precisely because they're potentially easy to make overpowered.

But that's a topic for another thread.
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