Pick pocket - too good?

[Syl]

Even at a level 5 with 8 points in + a 4 dex that's 12 PP, that means you need a 7 or less to fail just picking the pockets themselves. that is not including your chance of being caught. I mean, if you wanna make it harder just ask a DM to set you to faction enemy for the garda. not you have to walk around stealthed to move around.

now I wont lie. PPing the nobles is easy money with minimum threat, so I think you mean it is to easy to get gold with such a skill, does not mean PPing is too good. again try to actually pick pocket a threat, or a player via RP, now you're at a higher disadvantage and it becomes a challenge. SO no, I don't think PPing is to good. there is a skill to doing it, specially to hostile targets,

Now is the noble distract to good of a place to farm for jewelry? yes I will say it as I've said before in other places.

Now I've used the nobles occasionally to aquire gold but i'll make maybe.. 10k for 2 trips. which I do each full IG cycle. when the need for gold is desperate and my thief needs it fast. but I don't use it to become UBER rich. just something to hold me over for a few months like a normal thief would.

Edit: Or wit hall the recent thefts that's happened to them, maybe they might be a bit more vigilant so increasing their spot on some might work.

[Blight]

I have a PC with 20 appraise and 20 pickpocket.

When I sell necklaces to blaustein, he offers 180 gold. Selling to the MC vistani nets me 280 a necklace. And gold rings get me no more than 50 gp anywhere.

A general trip to vallaki makes me 7k a run.

That's not "too good" at all.

I hate crafting. I also hate murdering things for money. Pickpocket is completely fine exactly as it is. Last IG spring with the same character I made 80k just selling the herbs I collected that spring. If pick pocketing rewards seem to good by comparison to any other way to make money, you probably haven't figured out just how many different ways there are to makes just as easy money.  Investing 40 skill points into being able to accomplish one small action such as pickpocket is a very large sacrifice, even for a rogue.

And lastly, all the nobles are gone from the district all the way through winter. Pick pocketing has to be done in the summer and then you can't really do anything with the skill during that time other than steal WOODEN PLANKS or oregano off dementlieuse noblewoman.

If anything, Port PCs need their loot tables fixed and IMPROVED. I hate how much complete garbage loot has been added to the tables over the last few updates. Nerfing pickpocketing would make the skill useless.

[Syl]

I have a PC with 20 appraise and 20 pickpocket.

When I sell necklaces to blaustein, he offers 180 gold. Selling to the MC vistani nets me 280 a necklace. And gold rings get me no more than 50 gp anywhere.

A general trip to vallaki makes me 7k a run.

That's not "too good" at all.

I hate crafting. I also hate murdering things for money. Pickpocket is completely fine exactly as it is. Last IG spring with the same character I made 80k just selling the herbs I collected that spring. If pick pocketing rewards seem to good by comparison to any other way to make money, you probably haven't figured out just how many different ways there are to makes just as easy money.  Investing 40 skill points into being able to accomplish one small action such as pickpocket is a very large sacrifice, even for a rogue.

And lastly, all the nobles are gone from the district all the way through winter. Pick pocketing has to be done in the summer and then you can't really do anything with the skill during that time other than steal WOODEN PLANKS or oregano off dementlieuse noblewoman.

If anything, Port PCs need their loot tables fixed and IMPROVED. I hate how much complete garbage loot has been added to the tables over the last few updates. Nerfing pickpocketing would make the skill useless.

I feel your pain Doctor, looting the nobles in Port is annoying.. and their loot is ridiculous. really? you're a noble.. walking around with a copper bar, a gem worth 1-5 gold, and a paint set??!

And yes PPing is a decent way to make money for a thief that doesn't like killing and again I've only picked the pockets early morning when they spawn in since you don't know if someone has gone through or walked through thus preventing the loot from respawning. once a day is more than enough for a normal person

[booksarefun666]

I have a PC with 20 appraise and 20 pickpocket.

When I sell necklaces to blaustein, he offers 180 gold. Selling to the MC vistani nets me 280 a necklace. And gold rings get me no more than 50 gp anywhere.

A general trip to vallaki makes me 7k a run.

That's not "too good" at all.

I hate crafting. I also hate murdering things for money. Pickpocket is completely fine exactly as it is. Last IG spring with the same character I made 80k just selling the herbs I collected that spring. If pick pocketing rewards seem to good by comparison to any other way to make money, you probably haven't figured out just how many different ways there are to makes just as easy money.  Investing 40 skill points into being able to accomplish one small action such as pickpocket is a very large sacrifice, even for a rogue.

And lastly, all the nobles are gone from the district all the way through winter. Pick pocketing has to be done in the summer and then you can't really do anything with the skill during that time other than steal WOODEN PLANKS or oregano off dementlieuse noblewoman.

If anything, Port PCs need their loot tables fixed and IMPROVED. I hate how much complete garbage loot has been added to the tables over the last few updates. Nerfing pickpocketing would make the skill useless.

Can you provide screenshots of you getting these necklaces sold for 180 gp? Because I never see it go that low ever.

[Blight]

 

If I don't provide screenshots, am I lying?

Trust me, for my rogue that's my primary way of making money. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. The Vistani Mist Camp merchant offers more for those items than Blaustein does now. I mean, i can see if i can get a screenie for you, but it may be hard battling the 30+ other rogues gunning for the exact same 15 gold necklaces a spawn now that this thread has been made.

I'd say that this thread is a nerf to Pickpocketing all by itself lol.

I don't think a nerf is in order at all. Pickpocketers don't make any more money than somebody who does a craft or is a Vardo merchant. You realize that most long-term Vardo have actual MILLIONS right?

The one thing i would like to see is that NPC commoners and nobles across the domains, especially Dementlieu are all given reasonable loot. I wouldn't mind a reduction in those gold necklaces from Vallaki if it wasn't the only area on the entire server where pickpocketing is worth a damn.

[booksarefun666]

If I don't provide screenshots, am I lying?

I just remain incredulous it can go that low. They typically sell for 500 gp, even after this appraisal change and having pictures of what a rogue typically gets from a case of necklaces would help to have more to work with. All I have to work with is my personal experience pickpocketing, which has funded many people's armorsmithing professions.

Syl suggests making yourself hostile to the guard faction or nobles to make it more dangerous or pickpocketing hostile things. But that isn't needed nor borne out of necessity because all the good loot is in the noble's district and all thug's loot can be taken by just killing him.

Killing and rampaging through the noble's district holds many implications, including something that will hurt your standing with the CC and get you declined more on applications, thus pickpocketing is preferable.

But I understand defending it, it's a good gravy train and nobody wants it changed.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

But I understand defending it, it's a good gravy train and nobody wants it changed.

Yep, I think those defending it have pretty much conceded that it's such. If the Good Doctor says every rogue on the server is going to be going there every spawn to harvest it, then, what else is there to argue?

Likewise, Syl says...

Now I've used the nobles occasionally to aquire gold but i'll make maybe.. 10k for 2 trips.

That seems pretty sweet to me.

Regarding herbs and crafting, both at least require interaction with other PCs to be profitable. Harvesting the same set of NPC nobles over and over for 10,000 fang sounds the essence of boring.

Sure, some players may have money in the millions, but making 10,000 on a few minutes of pickpocketing sort of makes the bounty boards and the fetch quests a joke.

All that said, perhaps nerfing the Vallaki Noble loot *while* creating some PP-oriented bounties would be the way to go. PP would be useful for something interesting in game instead of what sounds to me tediously repetitive.

[booksarefun666]

All that said, perhaps nerfing the Vallaki Noble loot *while* creating some PP-oriented bounties would be the way to go. PP would be useful for something interesting in game instead of what sounds to me tediously repetitive.

I think ultimately that's the point I'm trying to make, too. People seem to cite DM meddling and player meddling but it, at least in my experience, is a rare thing and the mobs are otherwise static. Once you go above 20, there's no chance of even triggering a noble and you can get that fairly easily.

If you're at the same level, doing those bounty boards will take a lot of effort for what amounts to 1.5k + some stray loot you can sell that can possibly amount to 10k if you solo.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Considering there're other easy ways for rogues to make a ton of bank at low levels, I don't think that having pickpocket pay off is a bad thing at all. It's an investment in a pretty obscure skill that doesn't do much for you later on in the game.

[booksarefun666]

Considering there're other easy ways for rogues to make a ton of bank at low levels, I don't think that having pickpocket pay off is a bad thing at all. It's an investment in a pretty obscure skill that doesn't do much for you later on in the game.

What's easier than pickpocketing?

[BahamutZ3RO]

Considering there're other easy ways for rogues to make a ton of bank at low levels, I don't think that having pickpocket pay off is a bad thing at all. It's an investment in a pretty obscure skill that doesn't do much for you later on in the game.

What's easier than pickpocketing?

Not necessarily 'easier' but ninja-looting in general is just as profitable without requiring you sinking your precious skill points into something that does no good in combat.

[Blight]

Rogues should make more money. That''s why they chose to become rogues, for the most part. To make more money than honest work. Especially on a server where basically 70% of the dungeon spawns are immune to sneak attack. Making more money than other classes is the primary way rogues stay competitive, because they generally have to need better gear earlier than others. Rogue gear is EXPENSIVE.

I'm all for finding new and improved ways to make pickppocketing more interesting. But as a PC who exclusively uses pickpocket as his only means of income, compared to a PC who uses either dungeoning or crafting or bounties to make money, i don't see a big difference in how much money is made. The only difference i see is that I get to spend more time roleplaying and enjoying the server instead of monotonously grinding  at a craft or dungeoning.

But to be honest, the Server Team has very clearly stated they have no intentions of banning ninja-looting. And the money you can make ninja-looting with a few invisibility and silence scrolls makes the money you can make at pickpocketing look like chump change.

I made a character for the purposes of ninjalooting a while ago. Within two months that character had made almost 300k. I also made a PC for the purposes of pickpocketing. Within two months that character made 150k. You can make a crafter and in that time you might make 100k. It's ALL too much money. Acting like one is more absurd than the other isnt realistic when most experienced PCs on the server are sitting on literally MOUNTAINS of gold anyways.

The problem with these kinds of threads is that people want a solution for something that there isn't a solution to, if we could all be objectively certain that there was even a need for a solution at all. Every time we nerf something, it makes for a system that no longer serves a purpose. People complained about animal companions and familiars. Now, they are too costly to ever use in combat. Nerfs are rarely ever the solution.

 RPGs are about systems. Rogues have access to the most skill points. So by default they have access to the most opportunities in those systems. It doesn't matter how many nerfs or changes you make unless the point you want to make is to make each class identical, rogues will always find a way to make more money than other classes because they have access to the most systems. If you want to be really good at dungeoning and killing mobs, play any class other than rogue. If you want to be really good at making money, play a rogue.

[booksarefun666]

While this thread may have ran it's course I finally found out how Doctor is getting that low of a price and it's because the stated price in Blaustein doesn't actually give when you sell it.

It says 218 gp but it gives 700gp+. I suppose that the general consensus is that it's a non-issue to get 50k+ in cash for an hour or two of effort.

[Legion XXI]

It's not 50k+/hr, that's an inflated number based on you taking multiple ingame day cycles worth of a full clear of necklaces/rings(assuming you get the entire haul and nobody competed with you for even part of it on any of those days), stacking appraise gear, and hauling it all to a vendor in another domain that pays premium price.

I'm not saying this isn't a very easy way to make money - it is.  I'm just saying it seems like you're purposefully fudging the numbers to make it seem like it's worse than it is.  I'd bet real life money that if you set up a live stream, there is no possible way (short of somehow guaranteeing that nobody will go into the area long enough for it to reset repeatedly) you could make 50k+ in a single hour even once, let along consistently every hour with this method.  Especially considering that ingame day cycles are (6x24) 144 minutes long and it takes more than one to rack up enough to be worth selling.  That's like saying I made 1 million in gold in a single 10 minute harvest run, because I happened to get a white scarab that sold at auction for that much.  It doesn't incorporate all the down time between runs or the times someone else beats you out for it. 

Also, I don't even have a character currently that does this so it's not my defending my gold-getting methods (It's been about 2 years since I've done this, I just roll through and mess with other players I see doing it from time to time).  I actually prefer ninja-looting, I enjoy the possibility of scoring a rare item and the challenge that comes with different dungeons.  I found the pickpocket skill largely unrewarding and entirely useless outside of this one scenario.  It's not too good; it's actually the hardest skill to pass all related checks and get away with an item undetected.  Feel free to take a look at Pick Pocket on the NWN Wiki and the involved skill checks, it's STACKED in favor of the spotter (you need to pass a DC 30 check to even get an item at all, which is separate and often lower than the check to do it undetected.  And you'll likely be doing it from stealth, so add hide/ms rolls in there too at the likely -10 penalty you'll get from grabbing the item).  If you remove this, then this will just be another one of those skills that only gets used once in a blue moon in a DM event.  I've pickpocketed players before and got more hate for that than I ever did for killing anyone, it's just not worth it .  These NPCs are the only justification for taking the skill at all.

The only adjustment I'd like to see made here is an OCR bump on a failed pickpocket attempt.  Somewhere along the lines of (minimum) what you get for casting magic in front of NPCs.  If anything else, perhaps reduce the number of noblewomen in the district by 1/3 or half.  But the problem here isn't really the pick-pocketing, it's lack of consequence for failure.  If the guards came running on a failed attempt, this would stop being a low level (borderline npc ignoring if you ask me) jump-start.  You'd actually have to incorporate stealth and a decent pickpocket score into this.

I personally say let rogues/bards have their thing (especially considering the stealth gear for these classes often sells for some of the highest prices on the server due to how rare it is, and how incredibly difficult it is to sneak without it).  The only other two classes that get this skill are PrCs.  It's not like every PC on the server is doing this, and it's not like the ones that are doing it are out there flooding the market with gold for everyone (I play a merchant after all, and there's still PLENTY of people who can't afford items priced 5k and below).

[booksarefun666]

Here are the genuine numbers. Pickpocketing the whole entire noble's district will take about ten or twenty minutes RL and then you have to wait the next in-game day for it to respawn which IS a couple of hours before that does happen, but you can do other things while you wait for the next day.

You get a suitcase full of necklaces (14) x 200 - 700+ (2800 - 9800+) for ten or so RL mintues. The longest part of that, besides waiting for the next in-game day, is hauling all that to Blaustein for selling. So perhaps it'd be 8,400 - 29,400+ an hour if we were to include ONLY the time spent (rarely more than 20 minutes, so 20 x 3 payouts) actually pickpocketing.

I think that's an accurate representation so far, so definitely not 50k an hour. That was an exaggeration and I should've probably first started writing that.

But while it is low danger, high pay, I'm inclined to agree with you if we did remove it or even nerf too much it'd be a skill that wouldn't get much love anymore because people do go foaming at the mouth at being pickpocketed.

So instead of a nerf, your suggestion for an OCR bump is more than reasonable and you don't even have to hyperspecialize into stealth. If you pass the roll, you technically aren't supposed to be spotted but walking with two purse cutters is a bit suspect. Perhaps it'd be better off being moved over to Port-au-lucine to make that consequence factor more prevalent without actually needing to nerf anything because I think there's a bunch of noblewomen in the publique as well.

So in short, I concur to your line of thinking. It's not without merit.

Side note though: I suspect that rogue gear is extremely pricy because it's only for rogues and rogues have this aforementioned ability to pull a lot of cash; however, we both agree it isn't the money that's the problem.

[ethinos]

Question: If you pick pocket all the nobles of their valuables, do they respawn the next in-game day with the same stuff? If so, maybe their jewelry should be treated like a dungeons loot with different spawn levels. They may be nobles, but who'd be silly enough to ignore the rampant pick pocketing the day before and wear their valuables the very next day.

[booksarefun666]

Question: If you pick pocket all the nobles of their valuables, do they respawn the next in-game day with the same stuff? If so, maybe their jewelry should be treated like a dungeons loot with different spawn levels. They may be nobles, but who'd be silly enough to ignore the rampant pick pocketing the day before and wear their valuables the very next day.

Yeah, the loot remains static. I also have some more reasons to stick the necklaces in Port-au-lucine.

For rogues, they can appreciate the convenience of having Blaustein a boat ride away instead of treking across Barovia.

There'd also be more people in the publique as a result and the gendarme (as a faction and NPCs) patrol that area pretty intensely so the player guards do not have to go out of their way to actually catch petty thieves.

Balance-wise, low levels have a much harder time getting to port-au-lucine than the noble district of Vallaki and low levels slipping from sewer to sewer to do so isn't as easy now because there's only one or two grates at the publique.

[Legion XXI]

I thought about it and I actually like a lot of your points in support to moving this whole operation out to Port.  It would help create sort of a buffer zone so that level 2s aren't just trying to run this.  It feels like more of a mid level moneymaking scheme anyways.  Also as you said, there's the much higher chance for player interaction.

Even if low levels did want to run out there to do it, all the XP dungeons for them and so on are located back in Barovia.  They'd have to put in the extra effort of escorted, dangerous, travel back and forth (those Ogre High Mages on the road don't play games with that sleep spell).  I don't know what the suggested silver necklaces go for though, and copper would be so worthless that it's not worth doing.  If silver could catch at least in the 100-200 gold range that would still be more than enough to help you get started.  I do like the idea of there being SOMETHING that low level rogues can do in Vallaki to get some cash for startup gear, because that class more than a lot of others is very gear dependent.  Especially since most of the time low level groups are running ML Crypts and Tergs for the bulk of their time.  Both filled with will saves and sneak immune enemies that are the rogue's natural weaknesses.

[BahamutZ3RO]

We need a full on breaking-and-entering Elder Scrolls burglary system is what we need.

[Blight]

To be fair, the loot on those nobles spawn multiple times in a single IG day.

That being said, I feel like explicitly saying that during my day of pick pocketing yestersay, I ran into not one but three different pcs also wanting to pickpocket and the result was a mixture of threats, chasing each other out of the district  and negotiations. Today I walked away with only 7 necklaces.

[Mayvind]

I have seen it in action and know about this for years never pickpockets I prefere to kill stuffs for my loots. Anyway after this post was made more pcs starting do this more and now I see stacks full of gold rings and necklace sold to npc though it disappeared after a cycle. But confirm that you can hoard it and sell it in 1 trip baunstein for over 70k if the npc keep re spawn the loot per cycle game after leaving the area. It would be easy money indeed.

It is good that there a way for rogue to make coins but this seem a bit much that even me consider relevel and take pickpockets skills. Maybe change from gold to fake gold or electrum with less value. knowing nobles they don't really wear real stuffs in person afraid to get rob they wear fakes.

changed my mind after testing it myself.. Me Like It !

[Syl]

just going to add in, PP can also be used for different RP value. not just stealing but your slight of hand skills.

Most Rogues and bards will have enough points to put them in skills just because they have the points or just don't know what else to do hehe that said I've had a wizard with the PP skill but again I use PP also for slight of hand.

PPing the nobles in valiki is a alright way to make money and I don't think it should be removed completely from valiki, what could be done is maybe add a bit more different loot to them making gold necklaces a bit more less frequent.

Because as pointed out this clearly gives Rogues a chance to generate RP. be it with guards or other thieves.

[booksarefun666]

Even at a level 5 with 8 points in + a 4 dex that's 12 PP, that means you need a 7 or less to fail just picking the pockets themselves.

I don't know how this one slipped past me though. I won't be specific this time (all the guys pick pocketing now as the result of this thread will have to explore ) but you can find pick pocketing gear easily.

PPing the nobles in valiki is a alright way to make money and I don't think it should be removed completely from valiki, what could be done is maybe add a bit more different loot to them making gold necklaces a bit more less frequent.

Because as pointed out this clearly gives Rogues a chance to generate RP. be it with guards or other thieves.

A simple way would be just to swap the Port-au-lucine noble's loot table with Vallaki's nobles and it'd all be good. I heard there was some good gems/necklaces but nowhere near as frequent as Vallaki's.

Rogues would also appreciate this swap because port-au-lucine's nobles stay around even during the winter!

[Syl]

you can find gear easily yes.. that said it is still a long travel to get to. and you'll only increase it by 4 points. maybe 5 if you're lucky and get the +2 rogue gloves. but unless someone is escorting you or you know where to go. you'll generally be around valiki still

[booksarefun666]

you can find gear easily yes.. that said it is still a long travel to get to. and you'll only increase it by 4 points. maybe 5 if you're lucky and get the +2 rogue gloves. but unless someone is escorting you or you know where to go. you'll generally be around valiki still

That's still a +20% chance increase from gear alone, if our mark is 20.

8 + 4 = 12 pp vs 20 (60% of not being caught ) compounded with +20% ontop of that makes the chance of being caught being rare.