Author Topic: Update to Lore and UMD  (Read 4304 times)

Soren / Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12979
Update to Lore and UMD
« on: August 24, 2016, 05:45:46 PM »
Compared to regular NWN, the items you will find on the server are generally much less powerful and less valuable. At level 15 your character will typically wear items that you would already use at level 5 in vanilla NWN. This is why we are often branded as “low-magic”.

However we have failed to update the Lore and UMD skill requirements accordingly - that is, we’ve not adjusted them to match the item power of our server. The consequence is that you would only need to put a handful points in these two skills to be covered for even the most powerful items around.

Therefore we have tried to tweak those values somewhat to better fit our server. It is likely that we will have to adjust the values again later, but we hope that you will partake in experimenting in this with us with an open mind and share your thoughts and experiences.

LeviShultz

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2016, 04:32:50 AM »
Was basing the class/race/alignment emulation DCs off of base UMD ranks considered?

As it stands the available umd gear, while limited in variety, is fairly common- The big +5 item being available from merchants. You can spike your UMD 9-11 points by equipping gear and then the items you actually wanted right after. Then off comes all the UMD gear after you have the item you want equipped.

By setting the DCs around base ranks you have to have the required UMD at all times to wield locked weapons, armor, etc.- no cheesy gear swapping. I think this reflects the actual skill better. You have to have the required skill to both equip and wield the weapon, not just get it high enough to get the item on. This makes each skill point more meaningful. DCs could afford to be lowered allowing people to use their Vestments and Dark Sisters offerings, so long as they have the ranks. It also nicely allows the end level locked gear to be wielded by end level UMD focused characters, not just those that were able to spike their skill high enough.

"A no wisdom ranger is literally unwise."

Hlot

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 05:00:13 AM »
PotM is all about gear swapping cheese anyway, take a look at detection gear, influence gear, appraise gear and any other gear that nobody wears all the time but everybody swaps to get better rolls.

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2016, 08:18:03 AM »
PotM is all about gear swapping cheese anyway, take a look at detection gear, influence gear, appraise gear and any other gear that nobody wears all the time but everybody swaps to get better rolls.

Not really true Hlot, Lets use those very skills( Influence and appraise) for examples, most the description of the items that increase those skills they are often described as well made often of a high quality metal or fabric, for haggling most people use appraise and they even wear stuff to look flashy in real life to try and show they have wealth to hopefully get a better deal,

Those with influence tend to wear things  that help them appear more influential who are you more likely going to believe? A smelling fith covered begger? or the man that dresses nicely?

I was worried about this UMD thing but it is only effecting 1 of my two characters that have UMD since the one that isn't effected could probably just about wear and or wield anything due to them having over 20 UMD without gear, whether they physically can is a different story since it's a rogue... and rogues don't wear medium or heavy armour.

And people will still swap gear yes, but they do such even in dungeons that is what real adventures do, they do not leave without being prepared for something or another. people do not just swap gear for skilled they also will swap gear IC to try and make them more resilient

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Hlot

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2016, 10:57:42 AM »
I don't get what you are trying to say. People swap gear all the time because they got gear to swap and not because they RP anything particular. Every character after some level will probably have full Appraise, Lore, Listen/Spot, Search, etc gear at hand. Many will have it without single skill point invested in particular skill. And if you are really trying to RP merchant it's best to start new merchant RP character, with high charisma and Appraise/Lore/Influence skills, with some adequate gear and proper costume.

ladylena

  • Gundie Mom
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3259
  • Meow!
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 11:12:37 AM »
I think what Syl was saying was that having such gear makes sense for an adventurer. One would carry things that would help them in certain situations. Sure they may have items to help, but those items do not beat someone who has invested into the skill. Kinda like a chef compared to someone who just cooks. The Chef has better skill because they have studied it, where as the average person who has the gear to cook (knives, bowls, pots, pans, etc) can still cook, but they are not as skilled as the one who has invested time into learning it
Currently playing:
                          Narcissa Bogdan

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 11:19:26 AM »
Yeah that's what I was trying to explain Ladylena, I'm not the best at explaining some things.

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Hlot

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2016, 01:34:42 PM »
Sure they may have items to help, but those items do not beat someone who has invested into the skill

This is not true, except when both characters have very similar items and are of similar levels. For example take two rings +5 listen each, a helmet +5 listen and amulet +4 listen. The bonus granted equals 19 character levels, assuming you have no feats. If you don't own such items yourself, and assuming you aim for level 14-19, for almost whole lifespan of your character you will be trailing behind someone with items but without skill points invested.

ladylena

  • Gundie Mom
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3259
  • Meow!
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2016, 01:39:17 PM »
Sure they may have items to help, but those items do not beat someone who has invested into the skill

This is not true, except when both characters have very similar items and are of similar levels. For example take two rings +5 listen each, a helmet +5 listen and amulet +4 listen. The bonus granted equals 19 character levels, assuming you have no feats. If you don't own such items yourself, and assuming you aim for level 14-19, for almost whole lifespan of your character you will be trailing behind someone with items but without skill points invested.

Well what I meant, was someone who invested in the skill. For example, blind monk. They would have better hearing and likely put multiple points into the skill, and likely would have the gear as well.
Currently playing:
                          Narcissa Bogdan

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2016, 02:08:59 PM »
I'm just gonna give a few numbers for that listen Hlot. We'lls say each of the two characters both are rogues and are level 14. that is reasonable enough and not terribly long into your character's life.

one only has gear that they have to swap. and no skill points. and we'll give this one the max of 20 listen due ot items and a 12 wisdom

the other will have skill and learned. you can get +2 from background. you're skill points will be 17 due to it being a class skill +3 from the feat we're at 22 now, and another +1 from wisdom that is 23 listen

someone who is learning and learned their craft, their trade, the thing that is pretty much a part of them will never be beaten by just swapping out gear and having no talent in it.

Yes people will swap gear but they are not doing it for out of character reasons, if they need ot be stealthy the character has the gear to become more stealthy, if they wish to sell things for a better price they will wear things that make them I don't know how ot describe it.. similar to the merchant wearing expensive things and knowing the game

another prime example is something set into NWN's it self. traps. Lets give you I'll be kind and give you a wizard with a 20 int 5 skill points into Disable trap and you can have the best gear in the world... you will not be able to disarm certain traps no matter what due to Rogues having steadier hands or far more understanding of it. The tolls are just that, tools, if you lack the knowledge and skill it will only get one so far.

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Hlot

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2016, 04:57:29 PM »
Your poor example only proves that gear is far superior because to get listen score higher than character just with items you have to waste background, feats and skill points, and the difference is minimal. This is really only relevant if both characters have similar items but different skill scores. One simple example, to offset single belt that gives +10 to influence you have to be 10 levels higher than other character.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 04:59:16 PM by Hlot »

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2016, 05:02:45 PM »
If you see these as poor examples than i'm sorry to hear that.. but the fact that the person with no skill how to now weaken themselves in other areas just to come even close to someone with the raw talent is sad.

But this has gotten way off topic.

you're taking this as way to much of a problem when it isn't a problem. there are pros and cons for changing out gear which.. again.. -everyone- does for something. but everyone has IC reasons for such things.

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

LeviShultz

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2016, 06:23:14 PM »
This is getting a bit off topic. My original point was that mechanically you are able to equip enough UMD gear to allow you to bypass the class/race/alingment restrictions of certain item and then equip said item. Once that item is equipped however, players are able to remove that gear and lower their skill below the skill threshold held that was originally required. By utilizing base ranks instead, however, the character in question will always have that level of UMD and better represents how a character would both equip and continue to use that item.

Equipping certain gear for certain a situation is only logical and makes sense. My suggestion was based around the fact the players can long reap the befits and rewards of the UMD skill after it has been lowered, when they should in my opinion not be able to. If for example you were wearing a "Ring of Seeing Eyes", you do not continue to have the dark vision feat associated with it after its removed. You used the piece of equipment for its purpose lose its benefits. UMD class/race/allignment emulation DCs are different in that they are a different kind of check. With spot/influence etc., frequently you make one check to see if you pass or fail and that's it. They do not continuously check to see if you still are able to see that sneak you already noticed without any change in the situation.

In my opinion, wearing a locked piece of gear should require you to have a the requisite skill at all times. Constant skill checks are an extreme drain on the server however. So by using base umd ranks instead current score, the character will always have the required use skill at all times. No further checks required.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 10:18:50 PM by LeviShultz »

"A no wisdom ranger is literally unwise."

modderpunk

  • Developers
  • Dark Lord
  • *
  • Posts: 980
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2016, 06:51:04 PM »
UMD items never realy made much sense to me. I personaly like your proposal.



Building out off the mists

LeviShultz

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2016, 07:00:19 PM »
UMD items never realy made much sense to me. I personaly like your proposal.

I like UMD item for for playing a hedge-mage or having them equipped if you want to use a certain scroll mid combat. But I think for equipping locked items a 9-11 skill point increase is a bit much considering those items are available to everyone at any level.

"A no wisdom ranger is literally unwise."

Jeebs

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2016, 09:10:26 PM »
I must be mistaken, because I thought that if you lost the UMD level to have something equipped it redded out (even if it stayed equipped) and you no longer got the bonuses of said item. However, you folks probably know the workings of the engine better than I do. I agree that if you're using an item to get the UMD level to equip something and then remove the item that was allowing you to do so, you should no longer be able to equip something you don't have the requirements for anymore.

HellsPanda

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6598
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2016, 02:42:54 AM »
Equipping something that you require X UMD which you can only get with certain items, and them removing certain items so you no longer have X UMD, smells like an exploit to me.

This is ofcourse if they still work.

LeviShultz

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2016, 05:40:55 AM »
The items still work without the required UMD. The way the UMD DCs are set up is for equipping the item. If you had the required UMD to equip the item at the time, you're not exploiting. You met the challenge of the DC.

What I'm proposing is interpreting the challenge a little more broadly to better represent the skill- Requiring the skill to both equip an item and to use it continually. DC's could actually afford to be lowered but the relative difficulty of achieving them has risen for some because you lack the variable bonuses given by gear and spells. Players who've invested heavily in the skill will be able to use the class/race/alignment locked gear similar to their level.

"A no wisdom ranger is literally unwise."

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2016, 04:33:54 PM »
Seems reasonable. Not sure how complicated it is to implement though. I think you would have to manually reference the UMD table every time an item is equipped and then manually strip it back off of the player if they don't meet the requirements. It wouldn't be as clean as the game's usage of UMD where unusable items appear red in the inventory.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 04:35:54 PM by Bad_Bud »

InMyDarkestHours

  • The Underworld
  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 460
  • I reveal my heart, to this beauty dressed in dark
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2016, 04:51:22 PM »
I like how Lore has become a bit more valuable as a result.

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1796
  • dat boi
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2016, 06:16:34 PM »
I think this idea is interesting assuming we're not suddenly going to end up with a pile more items our characters could use at one point but now can't.  The inconsistency of it is a bit silly and assuming that can be avoided, the idea has merit.



LeviShultz

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
Re: Update to Lore and UMD
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2016, 07:02:06 PM »
I like how Lore has become a bit more valuable as a result.

Yeah, lore is definetly more valuable now. The other day I had to spend close to 2k to identify 5 or 6 items I got from a chest. Before the changes I felt like anything I couldn't identify with two lore rings would be well worth the 100 gold to get it identified. I think this might encourage some of the characters that like to loot to either have a friend look at it or invest in the skill themself. Its easily a 1/5Th or your margins.

"A no wisdom ranger is literally unwise."