Author Topic: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance  (Read 15436 times)

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2016, 06:10:38 AM »
Yup :thumbup:

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2016, 06:38:58 AM »
It seems to me that we are running in circle alas. We assure you all, your arguments have all been taken into consideration and discussed, thoroughly and seriously, among the Dev team. We understand that a few of you disagree with it, but in the end, we still feel that we have taken the best decision for the module.

Thank you for your understanding.

It looks like a lot of people in this thread are looking at this as a punishment, it's not. The item was balanced for the good of the community, that's all, it's time to move on.

Syl

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2016, 08:32:18 AM »
Not trying to stir the pot but I've been reading this for a while. The only ones who are really complaining are those that run the highest level dungeons often. I've ran them once or twice, never seen them. nor do they really sound all that important to me you can wear a different cloak. I probably question more the fact that it is a cloak and not a robe since Vestments are something clergy members wear as robes.

At any rate, I really don't see why complain, you have Stone skin and greater stoneskin.. as well as belts of the brawler, archer, and swordsmen. and many other items that give 5 dr vs insert type. Can easily wear one of those and plan accordingly.

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2016, 09:32:29 AM »
Most of the people who have those cloaks paid a ridiculous amount of gold to acquire it. And it's now become pretty much useless for them. Taking time get an item to finally get it nerf to a point that it isn't useful anymore isn't a good feeling.

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2016, 10:11:12 AM »
It seems reasonable to me that the players most effected are going to be the ones voicing concerns and I'm really not sure what constantly pointing out this fact accomplishes.

 The cloak still functions the exact same way, just for a lower level bracket of players. So yes, I think it's a bit understandable to question why this is considered fair.

I'd also wager there are other people who take issue with the change that simply don't feel like wading through this thread. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 10:15:36 AM by FinalHeaven »



Syl

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2016, 10:20:53 AM »
It seems reasonable to me that the players most effected are going to be the ones voicing concerns and I'm really not sure what constantly pointing out this fact accomplishes.

 The cloak still functions the exact same way, just for a lower level bracket of players. So yes, I think it's a bit understandable to question why this is considered fair.

I'd also wager there are other people who take issue with the change that simply don't feel like wading through this thread.

Only reason I mention the high-level players. Me included in that, is because they are the ones finding it and or buying it. if it was so powerful I'm sure it was being sold for easily -hundreds- of thousands of gold. meaning low level characters can't really afford buy it so it has little effect on them. but for the threads sake i'll leave it at that and let the thread die.

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DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2016, 10:23:36 AM »
First off, it's obviously unfair if your character has put a lot of playing time (representied by gold or whatever else) into procuring this item and then had it nerfed. That would be a bitter pill to swallow if it happened to one of my characters.

Nevertheless, if the powers that be (PTB) judge the item to be unbalanced, then it is also their prerogative to adjust it for the overall health of game play.

The question then becomes whether this loss can be mitigated in some way. Folks have mentioned grandfathering, which does not seem entirely satisfactory, given that would continue a game imbalance in favor of players who have been here longer versus newcomers. (Personally, I feel newcomers are already at such a disadvantage that in terms of game mechanics, at least, they should not be handicapped even worse.)

Perhaps the PTB could decide on an appropriate XP reward for cashing in old Vestments of Faith? That is, any character possessing such an item before the change could contact a DM and have it swapped for some number of experience points?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 10:28:43 AM by DrXavierTColtrane »
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MAB77

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2016, 10:56:48 AM »
First off, it's obviously unfair if your character has put a lot of playing time (representied by gold or whatever else) into procuring this item and then had it nerfed. That would be a bitter pill to swallow if it happened to one of my characters.

The question to begin with is, why do these players were willing to pay such a high amount in the first place? The answer is easy, "because they can.". They had the gold and chose to spend it as they saw fit. We, the staff, didn't made them pay such amount. If anything, trying to see how much an NPC gives you for an item should very much give you an idea of what is the module's philosophy about an item price.

Adjustments have been made on the module on a constant basis ever since its creation. This is nothing new and it will happen again. Maybe its simply time to realize that no one should pay such high amounts for items?  That a player is willing to pay such a high amount is on him, and him alone. We didn't cheat him, he cheated himself. IMHO no items are worth such prices. But it is a free economy and the right price is the one a buyer is willing to pay its seller. Nevertheless the player must accept the consequences, with the possibility that in the future other adjustments may change the properties of what he buys. It's not a bitter pill, it's part of the game if you play on PotM.

I will also add that these players are already among the most powerful characters on the server to be able to amass that sum, or at the very least cunning enough to be with a crew that knows what its doing. So that cloak was already only marginally useful to those characters, any impacts on those high level characters will be quite minimal no matter what. The uproar concerning this adjustment is quite louder than the end result truly is. I am confident that these players will carry on and manage to overcome obstacles the same way they always did and that the whole issue will soon be forgot.

Nevertheless, if the powers that be (PTB) judge the item to be unbalanced, then it is also their prerogative to adjust it for the overall health of game play.

Quite so. But it's important to point out that nothing is done on a whim. We discuss these things inside out before enacting any changes. Then we reach a consensus when we feel it is for the best of the game.

The question then becomes whether this loss can be mitigated in some way. Folks have mentioned grandfathering, which does not seem entirely satisfactory, given that would continue a game imbalance in favor of players who have been here longer versus newcomers. (Personally, I feel newcomers are already at such a disadvantage that in terms of game mechanics, at least, they should not be handicapped even worse.)

Newcomers are not impacted at all by this decision. Quite the contrary they are now able to acquire a real powerful item (Because, yes, it is still quite powerful) at a more reasonable price than it was sold before.

Perhaps the PTB could decide on an appropriate XP reward for cashing in old Vestments of Faith? That is, any character possessing such an item before the change could contact a DM and have it swapped for some number of experience points?

To my knowledge we have never done so in the past, and it is unlikely we will ever  do so either.

We have explained our reasons why the modification was necessary. We feel it was brought to a just level, as it was always intended  to begin with. It remains a powerful item and the very few high level characters affected by the change will only be so in a very marginal way.

Move on folks. The decision is final. Debating it ad nauseam is pointless.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 11:08:28 AM by MAB77 »
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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2016, 11:07:47 AM »
No one is being accused of "cheating." My point is that feeling bitter about the decision is a human reaction (witness how many long-time players are feeling it).

It's all well and good to tell people they have no right to feel that way, but that's simply replacing their sense of fairness and what is just with your own.
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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2016, 11:33:15 AM »
If discussion is no longer welcome perhaps the thread should be locked.



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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2016, 11:47:22 AM »
If discussion is no longer welcome perhaps the thread should be locked.

There is always a chance of a crucial point we may have missed, new arguments to be made, nor do we wish to be too autocratic. We are not against constructive criticism or suggestions. It is only the rehashing of the same points all over again, as seems to be the case here, that serves no purpose. I do feel we are done here, but others may disagree and may have something to contribute so I won't lock the thread for now.
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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2016, 11:54:05 AM »
If the same points are being raised I imagine that means they've not been addressed to the satisfaction of those raising them.

If the claim is going to be made that the decision is final and people should move on, the thread should be locked.  It can't be claimed that discussion is still welcome as long as people don't bring up the points they have issues with.



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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2016, 12:09:58 PM »
I'd like to make a final comment here. While there are several statements with which I strongly disagree (players who obtained these items had the gold laying around / no one has the right to feel bitter) - I'm not going continue defending my point of view, as it obviously isn't going to lead to a change. We're beating a horse that died before this conversation even started, but I guess that's a bit of the problem ....

While a lot of amazing work goes into this server on donated time and the majority of changes I've seen here are well received - ones that players views as 'nerfs' in a sense, are nearly always final. From the changes to enchanted items, lowering essences yielded from alchemical reagents, to 'randomized' loot appearing less frequently and lowering the properties on items like the vestments - feedback that doesn't agree with the change is largely ignored.

We've lost some players over the years who felt like their feedback wasn't valued (and I've seen some pretty nasty replies when they posted their 'goodbyes' stating such) - and as FinalHeaven mentioned, many active players won't wade into these issues for the same reason (plenty of people have expressed that to me directly, so it isn't speculation).

My objective here isn't to point fingers or suggest that these things are done out of malice, but hopefully to steer future changes that may lead to sore feelings in a different direction. I understand that at times, unpopular decisions need to be made for the overall balance of the server (on a personal note, I completely agree with the changes to enchanting and cleric spell slots) - but making unilateral decisions with little regard for player feedback seems to be a poor way to go about it and really only amplifies negative feelings in the end.

Bad_Bud opened a topic on potentially dropping a cleric spell slot, well in advance of that happening. He started a discussion so that both sides could weigh in before any decision was made. And while some people still didn't like the change afterward - I think people felt much better about it, because they were part of the discussion and received a realistic explanation on why the change was being considered. They also knew this change was incoming well before it occurred. Perhaps more changes that directly effect players could follow this format going forward.

Again, my point here isn't to diminish the effort that the devs put into the server - I think everyone appreciates the amount of work that has gone into creating an environment that appeals to such a wide audience - but I do think there is some room for improvement on implementing changes and incorporating player feedback.

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2016, 12:42:33 PM »
That sums up pretty well where I'm at, I couldn't have said it better myself (no really, I couldn't have  :lol:)
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MAB77

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2016, 01:43:20 PM »
Thank you for your reply Mika.

That is exactly the kind of constructive criticism we look forward to. Ways to improve communications and interactions between us all. I fear though that "text" is hardly the best medium for those discussions, it is too easy to misinterpret bits here and there. But it is what we have, so must make do with it.

I take exception to the notion that this was a unilateral decision, without any regards to players feedback. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Feedbacks are not ignored at all. Most of the things implemented in game actually come from player suggestions. Feedbacks about nerfed items or processes, are actually a very minor part of all the retroaction we receive. They do tend however to be the most passionate and emotional of replies and therefore are the ones you see the most. Whereas new additions are taken for granted and not seen as the result of feedbacks (as they often are). It is unfortunate if some players leave because they think their voice is not heard, but nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, it is very hard to overturn a Dev team decision to nerf an item. But guys, that's the Dev team duty to assess the need for such action and we take that very seriously. And when doing so, we do monitor the impact of our decisions, read your feedbacks and discuss them, and readjust our course of action if need be. We don't feel there is a need for that in the current situation. We can't submit every decision made to the whole player base either, we'd be mired in endless debates. A line has to be drawn somewhere, that's why the groups duties are clearly outlined. Speaking of which, if you feel you can make a positive contribution to the module, do apply for the Dev, Community Council or DM teams yourself.

Also why is that no one sees the problem for the in-game issue that it is? I never said that everyone with such cloak obtained it by buying it, but the fact remain that a major point of contention concerning the change is about the price one bought such item to another player. Of course I understand that they may be disappointed, it's normal, I'm not saying they should not be. I also understand that those players would like a compensation. But they are turning to Devs and DMs for something outside either groups control, seeking an OOC solution to an in-game problem. We do not police in-game transactions between players. There is no reason why we should ever do so. So, why not try an in-game approach regarding that particular point? You might be able to recover some of the gold by tracking back the vendor and ask for compensation as it's not working as advertised. Chances of success are slim, I know, many vendors may not be active anymore and those alive may flatly refuse you. But at least it's an in-game approach to an in-game problem, that may lead to interesting roleplay. Worst case scenario, you can still sell it back to other players for a fair amount of gold. For those whom obtained it through loot or were given one. The problem should not even be of major consequences with all the alternative options available. Selling the belt even becomes a net gain.

Now, can a better effort of communication between the player base and the dev team can be done? Most certainly, there is always room for improvement and we will strive to avoid similar issues in the future. But please, a measure of trust in your PotM staff is required. Things may not always turn out the way you'd like, but your feedbacks do impact the module all over. To think otherwise is a mistake.

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2016, 03:13:24 PM »
And I agree with your initial comment on player feedback. My intention wasn't to suggest that player feedback is never taken into account - many of the changes and new items we've seen on the server are implemented from player suggestions. My thoughts are restricted to 'nerfed' items. I do believe you're correct that they are the most passionately debated changes on their server, but from memory (I could certainly be forgetting something) - I do not recall a compromise being made on any nerfed item in my time here, after players had negative feedback.

I'm certainly not saying I don't have faith in the dev team either - you all have a very broad view of what's going on. But players have a different perspective that you may not see as well, which I think is an important consideration. And in regard to announcing changes to the player base - yes, announcing every tweak would be a nightmare. But the handful of changes I've mentioned are ones that have a very direct impact on players - you tend to be able to see those coming (I'd even wager the dev team has talked about getting a negative response prior to making these changes in some instances :p). Those are the ones where I would encourage a dialogue with players - I've seen no more than two or three of these changes in a year, which seems manageable.

To be clear, I'm also not suggesting some kind of gold refund for the cloak. My initial post was in hopes of reaching a compromise on the properties which I understand isn't going to happen. Trying to work out any kind of system for a refund wouldn't really work and most players probably don't have firm documentation of what they paid, etc.

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2016, 03:57:01 PM »
Move on folks. The decision is final. Debating it ad nauseam is pointless.

I take exception to the notion that this was a unilateral decision, without any regards to players feedback. Nothing could be further from the truth.

With all due respect, mate, you can't have your cake and eat it.
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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2016, 04:54:14 PM »
Shazam.  I love MAB, but that statement sat fairly poorly with me, even if its what is going to/must happen. 
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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2016, 05:14:15 PM »
Adjustments have been made on the module on a constant basis ever since its creation. This is nothing new and it will happen again. Maybe its simply time to realize that no one should pay such high amounts for items?  That a player is willing to pay such a high amount is on him, and him alone. We didn't cheat him, he cheated himself. IMHO no items are worth such prices. But it is a free economy and the right price is the one a buyer is willing to pay its seller. Nevertheless the player must accept the consequences, with the possibility that in the future other adjustments may change the properties of what he buys. It's not a bitter pill, it's part of the game if you play on PotM.

I'm not picking on you personally mate, but I really want to answer this.

Yes, the server runs a "free" economy. Yes, we accept that changes will happen, that decisions will be made that we might disagree with. But the problem here is that the Dev team is making their failure to communicate part of the players' burden of trust. And that's harder to swallow.

Look at this very thread. Players are given a paucity of information, left to fill out the gaps, and asked to take matters on faith, because most Devs would rather play and build things than argue about what they should play and build. And that's completely understandable, but it's still a failure to communicate on the Devs' part. (Some DMs and Devs have been more forthcoming given some great answers; I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say those are really helpful and insightful posts, but they weren't completely sufficient.)

Personally, I'm not really frustrated by an item being nerfed; I mean, I only just came back from a two year hiatus, one item is no big deal. What I do feel to be unfair is that only one side in this debate is really being forthcoming and seeking compromise -- and that's us players criticising the rebalance. (Really, I think we have been extremely well-behaved in this thread compared to other Nerf Flame Wars of old.)

I mean it's taken us until today to be told that +5/5 was a bug and that's why it won't be Grandfathered. (It's a fair point! Why hide it? :P ) And I've not yet seen a really solid, clear explanation why +4/5 is not a compromise we can explore. (Would +4/5 still be too expensive? If it is, say so and you've ended the argument!)

Instead we're getting mixed signals about how much this decision is up to debate.

*helpless shrug*
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 05:20:27 PM by aprogressivist »
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FinalHeaven

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2016, 05:52:57 PM »
Additionally, the reason for the nerf seems to keep changing.  It was listed as being changed due to bringing it in line with recent spell changes.  It was pointed out that if that were the case, it would be +4 Soak 5.

Then it is mentioned that the item is over powered.  Perhaps it was, but this doesn't answer the question of why it is okay for it to be OP for a certain level bracket and not another.

The most recent reason seems to have something to do with gold value and where it spawns.

I don't believe players expect to be told every time a new line of code is written.  I do think that it would not have been very difficult to open a discussion on something like an item nerfing, or any of the other examples Mika gave in his post.  He even cited a case where it was done once. The textbook response seems to always be that players should inherently trust in their staff members.  This is a great concept and I'd say 80% of the time it's not an issue, but I think when things play out like this thread has it's not hard to see why some folk might have difficulty accepting that recommendation at face value.



Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2016, 06:16:15 PM »
Are you suggesting that every time we nerf a single item, we should open up a topic well in advance?

I understand that the note in the changelog wasn't very informative, and perhaps somewhat imprecise, but on the other hand, if we are to so extensively debate every small change and prepare people for it, writing on the forums would be all we would ever get done.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 01:38:49 AM by Zarathustra217 »

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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2016, 06:30:06 PM »
I'm suggesting that in the current state of things where significant change only happens every few months that it is indeed not difficult to open a topic of discussion with players when the change effects them directly and is likely to cause a good deal of debate or frustration.  I think it is pretty clear before a change occurs if it is something that people would be interested in discussing and providing feedback to.

I did not suggest you do it every time you do a simple item change.  I think to suggest this is a small change is inaccurate, as this thread would show.   

I have not played on a server since my first journey into multiplayer that has not listed significant changes in advance to their player base and allowed some discussion to occur, until now.  I fully admit that my experience may differ from others, but I don't seem to be the only one suggesting that better communication could be had either.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 06:32:20 PM by FinalHeaven »



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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2016, 08:00:58 PM »
Yeah, when you make changes to an item that goes for a million gold IC, it's not really a small change anymore...

...

(And before someone repeats the argument that nobody forced anyone to pay a million gold for these items, two counter-points:

* (1) Gold Pieces still represent in-game effort, which has value; even if this values suffers from inflation. It's not exactly trivial to make a million fang, even if it is arguably too easy;
* (2) true value is measured by supply & demand, not fiat; if an item is worth 4,000GP in the tool builder but goes for an auction for a million GP, then the million GP is probably a truer reflection of what players think the item is worth than the tool builder cost.

Put simply: even if you personally think these items are over-valued at auction, the fact that other people paid that much for them was an indicator that those players cared about those items, or at least the time & effort their acquisition represents.)

...

(And seriously, are we not even going to broach whether +4/5 is a reasonable compromise? What about +4/4? Heck, even +4/3 is more flatly useful across all levels than +3/5, and therefore more interesting.)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:07:49 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2016, 09:23:08 PM »
* (2) true value is measured by supply & demand, not fiat; if an item is worth 4,000GP in the tool builder but goes for an auction for a million GP, then the million GP is probably a truer reflection of what players think the item is worth than the tool builder cost.

Absolutely.

To say something like "well, perhaps you shouldn't be paying those kinds of amounts for items" is to portray players as irrational. How are players supposed to anticipate sudden, arbitrary rule changes?

Consider Monopoly. I buy Boardwalk for $400 because I believe I can place a hotel there and collect $2,000. Then someone decides that rent is excessive and caps the rent at $1,000. It's simply adding insult to injury to say I should never have paid $400 for a property in the first place.
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Re: Vestments of Faith - Rebalance
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2016, 12:10:10 AM »
I will speak only for myself here, not as a dev. It is obvious at this point that I have a different view regarding the game. It is normal we don't all share the same view. It would be a boring game otherwise. My view is not better than yours. Merely different.

But, XP, items, gp, etc. are all quite secondary to RP in my mind. Those can usually be replaced with time. I genuinely feel that RP is better served with weaker items than stronger "blanket protection" items, that nerfing an item or losing electronic gold in an RPG is ultimately inconsequential in the greater scheme of things. That +4 or +5 items are an aberration that should not be. But that's just me. I'm not trying to convince you to my point of view, but at the very least it explains why I strongly disagree with the outrage against the Vestment of Faith adjustment.

That being said, I'm not against a compromise either. But to simply revert the item to +4/resist 5, no. I will strongly oppose that. However... maybe it could be mitigated by adding penalties to the item, like there is on the oathbearer shield? I'd say -2 to Will, -4 to parry. Explained by the fact that the cloak would be cumbersome to fight with and give a false sense of protection, both physical and spiritual. Such cloak would also be moved to rarer treasure troves.

I don't like it though. I still think +3/resist 5 cloak is better suited to the module. But I am willing to discuss that option with my fellow Devs if it helps resolve the current division.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 12:44:58 AM by MAB77 »
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