Vestments of Faith - Rebalance

[Knas]

Reducing its potency from +5 to +4 would have close to no impact, as it would basically only affect high level casters with GMW.

+3 is still increadibly useful as 90% of PCs, NPC & monsters won't be able to break it. As it used to be or at a +4 it turns into one of those "must have" items that are easily the best for both PvM & PvP which it still almost is, seeing you can stack it with reduction items.

[Delete Me]

I do not agree knas. Why were other plus five items added recently if this such an issue? It would have an effect, making characters more dangerous to one another, but provide the same relief through fighting the environment. Its an end game item, not for the 90 percent stuff its useful for...

[APorg]

+3 is still increadibly useful as 90% of PCs, NPC & monsters won't be able to break it.

Even if that guesstimate is correct, it's misleading. You should not be comparing one piece of equipment across all level ranges; you should be comparing it to equivalent equipment in its level bracket.

Because maybe 90% of things below level 12 can't break +3 DR (and I'd challenge even that number as being overly generous), but that number turns around very quickly for level 12+.

On the PVP angle: it's so easy for a level 12+ PC to break +3 that I feel it would only be tedious to iterate through the options; but suffice to say, +3 DR is largely useless in PVP against anyone who can bring buffs of at least a moderate magical varnish to the fight -- and the people who can't do that are gonna be in the minority once you move away from the Vallaki starter area.

On the PVE angle: once you get to higher level dungeons, most enemies start routinely having +3 weapons; or have attacks that bypass physical DR altogether.

So this is the issue: this rebalancing seems to be entirely focused on levels 1 through 11 without having put in much -- if any -- consideration for levels 12+. But this piece of gear was never going to aimed for low levels in the first place. And in the very kind of areas, against the kind of monsters or PCs you face where you should be getting high level loot -- +3 DR isn't incredibly useful at all; +3 DR is weak, and there are better things you can do with a cloak slot in those circumstances.

Even the idea that +4 DR would still make it a "must have" is one I find very open to challenge, if you start thinking through the scenarios: +4 DR basically makes it as good as an always-on Stoneskin spell that never runs out. That's pretty good, but it's not the only thing you could be doing with that cloak slot; for example, you wouldn't really care about that cloak if you were a mage now because you can usually get +4 DR from a Greater Stoneskin spell that has no visual effects and very high duration. The scenarios in which a Mage would now favour this cloak are much more narrow: (1) before they've had a chance to cast GSS; (2) if they've been dispelled/Spell Breached; (3) when their GSS has run out. In all three of those scenarios, that Mage would likely be screwed anyway, however, so it's arguably no longer an effective use of their cloak slot.

To recap:

+4 DR is at least competitive with other choices you have at high level; and forces you to make distinct choices in terms of strategy. That's good. Being forced to decide between strategic choices is what makes a good game.

But as it currently stands, this piece of equipment has been nerfed to the point where it's no longer competitive except against low level threats (which should NOT be the benchmark) and no longer much of a strategic choice. And when there's no choices to be made, there's no strategy; and less game.

Please, please, reconsider.

[DM Cataclysm]

^ Very well-stated.

[Satyricon]

How about +4 soak +4 damage then?

[APorg]

Or at least take it out of the rare 1% loot tables because now it's a wasted opportunity for anyone who goes to these dangerous dungeons.

[Arawn]

Just a note: it is not in the 1% loot tables.

[LeviShultz]

I'll try to keep this as vague as possible for spoiler reasons.

Without giving away too much, you guys might have noticed that Eye's of Ra really don't drop anywhere outside of one domain in particular. Likewise, it could be said that the rarity of Vestments of Faith has less to do with the percentage that it drops and more to do with where it drops. If your characters are up for it, you might find some interesting things in the less commonly visited portions of the server.

[Ingwulf]

I'll try to keep this as vague as possible for spoiler reasons.

Without giving away too much, you guys might have noticed that Eye's of Ra really don't drop anywhere outside of one domain in particular. Likewise, it could be said that the rarity of Vestments of Faith has less to do with the percentage that it drops and more to do with where it drops. If your characters are up for, you might find some interesting things in the less commonly visited portions of the server.

That acctually makes a ton of sense..

[julienchab]

I'll try to keep this as vague as possible for spoiler reasons.

Without giving away too much, you guys might have noticed that Eye's of Ra really don't drop anywhere outside of one domain in particular. Likewise, it could be said that the rarity of Vestments of Faith has less to do with the percentage that it drops and more to do with where it drops. If your characters are up for, you might find some interesting things in the less commonly visited portions of the server.

That's true, but i think the point of the thread is about the nerf on the vestments, and not on the place they do drop

[Delete Me]

I know exactly where they drop, and they are still exceptionally rare. You find them in lesser visited areas sure, one in particular that is hardly ever hit, and therefore usually at max spawn level, accessing the highest tier of that particular loot chest. I don't think this invalidates any of the previously mentioned arguments at all.

[LeviShultz]

Or at least take it out of the rare 1% loot tables because now it's a wasted opportunity for anyone who goes to these dangerous dungeons.

Just a note: it is not in the 1% loot tables.

Context for those who seem to be confused about why I brought up my original point.

[Arawn]

What Philos is suggesting is that this item is not meant to be nearly as rare as people think it is. Its hard value is actually quite low; it's in fairly common loot tables. People have assigned a value to it based on its stats which isn't justified by any of the design philosophy behind it. We've adjusted its statistics to match its intended availability and value, that's all.

[McNastea]

So I took some time to think over the opposing view to this-at least what has been said.

What I've taken from it is that people feel you shouldn't be able to stack DR and soaking items-that it becomes too powerful.

The thing about this cloak is that it only mimicks the effects of a spell that is used very widely. Of course, it acts as a permanent effect of that spell, however it also soaks much less total dmg than that spell. It also does not work in addition to that spell.

If stacking DR and soak is the issue at hand, I don't think this cloak is the actual problem that the people opposed to it are saying it is. It seem to me that the problem would in fact be the belts that stack with both the cloak or the spell, and that can -never- be bypassed. But that's only assuming it's a problem to begin with-which I don't believe it is.

The cloak is a weak imitation of a widely used spell, it doesn't work with it, it doesn't work as well as it, and as has been pointed out 5 dmg is fairly negligible to the people that put them to use. It's just enough to be worth using without being too strong as far as I see it.

To point to other items as your point and then point to this one and say that it's the issue doesn't, to me, make sense. If your problem is with those items then talk about and modify those items.

A vestment of faith combined with stoneskin doesn't add the two together, you get the more powerful spell version until that wears off. But stoneskin does stack with these belts that you're bringing up, just like the cloak does. Nothing ever pierces these belts DR, and even a +5 soak 5 vestment of faith can still be pierced. I'm not saying it -should- be +5 soak 5, because this cloak was always a cheap imitation of stoneskin, though persistant, which made the fact that it soaked far less than stoneskin irrelevant and the item still worth using.

In the spirit of a rebalance, it should be changed, but a rebalance is making it +4 soak 5, because that's what the current form of stoneskin provides, that's what can be pierced by greater magic varnishes and a lvl 16 greater magic weapon. You can stack it with belts, sure, but stoneskin does that already and does it better, as does greater stoneskin which can now be cast on -anyone- not just the caster.

You might, I imagine, think that the belts might not be able to have their DR be bypassed-but they only apply to a certain physical dmg type. And that's true, and it's also true when you stack them with stoneskin or a vestment of faith. You can't have it both ways, and so as far as I see it, the belts are either the problem, or there is no problem.

So, if I'm being honest with myself, I truly don't understand what the rationale behind this was, and I would in addition to everyone else who has said so strongly urge you to change it to +4 soak 5.

What Philos is suggesting is that this item is not meant to be nearly as rare as people think it is. Its hard value is actually quite low; it's in fairly common loot tables. People have assigned a value to it based on its stats which isn't justified by any of the design philosophy behind it. We've adjusted its statistics to match its intended availability and value, that's all.

I still feel pretty strongly that you shouldn't change people's gear they already have. It was one thing with that massive change to enchanted items. Apparently, as was said, things were not how they were supposed to be. That's not the case here though. You found an item that has been well known for a long time, and you decided you didn't like how it worked. But instead of removing it and making a new one that worked how you wanted it to, you changed the current one. And I really don't think that's good form, personally.

[Mereyn]

Wouldn't completely removing the item from the game be more of a kick in the face, as it seems to be, to those who've spent their time gathering it?
That aside, how is changing the item to work in a new differently thought out way, as opposed to making an entirely new item to have the same effect you just got by
changing the former, any better?

You did put a good notion forward though, with the mention of the change of enchanting. And I realize that most of what I say are questions, but indulge me.
What if the cloak was never intended to work this way?

In all honesty, I will have to refer back to something Ciaran said; PotM is in a constant state of development. Much like in life, there are exceptions, nothing stays absolute.
Especially not considering the tag "BETA" is still lingering on our server's name, meaning we unfortunately have to expect changes. Be they negative or positive.

[FinalHeaven]

What Philos is suggesting is that this item is not meant to be nearly as rare as people think it is. Its hard value is actually quite low; it's in fairly common loot tables. People have assigned a value to it based on its stats which isn't justified by any of the design philosophy behind it. We've adjusted its statistics to match its intended availability and value, that's all.

This sounds like a reasonable statement but I think that the actual state of things in game is far different.  I think it's difficult to say that the cloak isn't as rare as it is currently, or you'd see a great deal more of them in game.  Perhaps it was intended to be more common, perhaps it was intended to be more of a mid to low level loot item.  That's all well and good - but it's not how things actually are in game or how they have been for some time.  The very fact that the cloak sells for so much and so many people turn out to try and buy one when they're being sold confirms this.

It's been considered to be a high level loot item for some time now, it's not actually been brought in line with spell changes as was the advertised reason for the "re-balance", and it's still just as over powered as some people claim it is - just at a different level bracket.  With all of these things in mind I think it's a poor development strategy to take an item that is well known and has been for some time, decide how it works is unliked, and then nerf it to the point it's no longer relevant to the bracket of players who had the most use from it.  Without telling anyone in advance.

If the item was simply removed and something added in it's place whilst allowing those who already had one to have it grandfathered in things might be a bit different.  Instead, peoples' hard work or large sums of gold have been negated and I think that's a poor way to go about it.

Wouldn't completely removing the item from the game be more of a kick in the face, as it seems to be, to those who've spent their time gathering it?
That aside, how is changing the item to work in a new differently thought out way, as opposed to making an entirely new item to have the same effect you just got by
changing the former, any better?

Because the cloak in question still behaves the exact same undesirable way, just at a mid to low level bracket instead of a high level bracket now.  It's not been re-balanced, it's been nerfed out for high levels.

You did put a good notion forward though, with the mention of the change of enchanting. And I realize that most of what I say are questions, but indulge me.
What if the cloak was never intended to work this way?

Then it would have (should have) been changed long ago.  We're not talking about a huge system change here, just stats on one particular item.

In all honesty, I will have to refer back to something Ciaran said; PotM is in a constant state of development. Much like in life, there are exceptions, nothing stays absolute.
Especially not considering the tag "BETA" is still lingering on our server's name, meaning we unfortunately have to expect changes. Be they negative or positive.

To this I say I scrutinize any other game I play on it's development that throws up a "BETA" tag, so why wouldn't I do the same here?  Furthermore, I'd argue that such a tag is the correct time to raise large concerns with the development process - It's much more likely a change could be implemented prior to a game's completion.

[booksarefun666]

Why not just re-adjust it's drop rate to match as a top 1% loot for this server instead of nerfing the item itself? Based on my anecdotal experience, I only ever saw the cloak twice - one given to a barbarian and one for sale for an extortionate sum. I was always under the impression it was the high-end loot Ravenloft had to offer.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Why not just re-adjust it's drop rate to match as a top 1% loot for this server instead of nerfing the item itself? Based on my anecdotal experience, I only ever saw the cloak twice - one given to a barbarian and one for sale for an extortionate sum. I was always under the impression it was the high-end loot Ravenloft had to offer.

Ironically it'd probably appear more often as 1% loot. :/ I think the thing to do would be to bump it to +4/5 and maybe consider reworking the area that it does drop in so that it'll be more appealing as a high level dungeon... since it hardly ever gets touched anyways.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

One thing to be aware of here: It might be a rare item, but it's not spawning exclusively in high level dungeons. It's gp-value (which our loot system relies on) is just around 4k meaning it could spawn at low to mid level places like the haunted monastery just south of Vallaki.

Why is the value that low? For simplicity, we mainly just use the value that NWN itself calculates, but due to a glitch in NWN we just now became aware of, the damage power for damage resistance isn't taken into account when calculating item value. In other words, +1/5 and +5/5 resulted in the same item value.

From that perspective, this change can be regarded as rebalancing the item to be in line with the rest of our loot items. We of course understand that it might frustrate people who've spend large amounts of gold in acquiring this item. But while we do regret having to cause this frustration, there's really no way we can meaningfully compensate for player to  player trade.

[Delete Me]

One thing to be aware of here: It might be a rare item, but it's not spawning exclusively in high level dungeons. It's gp-value (which our loot system relies on) is just around 4k meaning it could spawn at low to mid level places like the haunted monastery just south of Vallaki.

Why is the value that low? For simplicity, we mainly just use the value that NWN itself calculates, but due to a glitch in NWN we just now became aware of, the damage power for damage resistance isn't taken into account when calculating item value. In other words, +1/5 and +5/5 resulted in the same item value.

From that perspective, this change can be regarded as rebalancing the item to be in line with the rest of our loot items. We of course understand that it might frustrate people who've spend large amounts of gold in acquiring this item. But while we do regret having to cause this frustration, there's really no way we can meaningfully compensate for player to  player trade.

Its really fairly simple. Do what has historically be done, and don't punish the people that already obtained the item and re introduce the downgraded item, OR move the item as the item has been treated, into the higher loot table with the other +5/5 DR item

[Norture]

I dunno Kendera, enchanting was given a straight up nerf because it didn't fit the design of the server. The leaving legacy items thing happens if the item in question isn't significantly more overpowered than the nerfed version. If high-end dungeons are no longer doable without use of the mantle then perhaps server balance could be looked at, but I think it's easy to understand why the item was nerfed.

[MAB77]

It seems to me that we are running in circle alas. We assure you all, your arguments have all been taken into consideration and discussed, thoroughly and seriously, among the Dev team. We understand that a few of you disagree with it, but in the end, we still feel that we have taken the best decision for the module.

Thank you for your understanding.

[FinalHeaven]

One thing to be aware of here: It might be a rare item, but it's not spawning exclusively in high level dungeons. It's gp-value (which our loot system relies on) is just around 4k meaning it could spawn at low to mid level places like the haunted monastery just south of Vallaki.

Why is the value that low? For simplicity, we mainly just use the value that NWN itself calculates, but due to a glitch in NWN we just now became aware of, the damage power for damage resistance isn't taken into account when calculating item value. In other words, +1/5 and +5/5 resulted in the same item value.

From that perspective, this change can be regarded as rebalancing the item to be in line with the rest of our loot items. We of course understand that it might frustrate people who've spend large amounts of gold in acquiring this item. But while we do regret having to cause this frustration, there's really no way we can meaningfully compensate for player to  player trade.

The "re-balance" was said to have been done to bring the item in line with recent spell changes, not because it wasn't spawning correctly. 

So is the item over powered or not?  Because if it is OP, then nothing has changed at all.  It's simply OP for a lower level bracket and higher level characters get a loss of a piece of gear.  And I think the method of compensation is fairly clear - don't punish the characters that worked hard to get the item, let them keep it and then prevent it from spawning further and consider a new item in it's place.

I don't see how the state of things as it currently stands can be seen as fair unless the item is not actually considered over powered.  And if that's the case, it's now a case of one set of players getting shafted while another continues to benefit.  It would make a lot more sense to change the stats to +4 Soak 5 and lets everyone continue to benefit in the same way.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

The estimated value will be changed as well, meaning it won't spawn at low level places. Even with +3/5 it's a mid-high level item.

[LeviShultz]

This might actually mean the item will become more common interestingly. While a higher value might make the chance of finding it in any one particular chest lower, by placing it in a higher tier it might start dropping in more dungeons, more commonly visited dungeons and dungeons with more chests to loot from.