Timestop, and how it works on PotM

[Night of Reod]

I think a better way to do it would be to have the timestop spell end when you start or finish casting, though I have no idea how hard or easy that would be to script, let alone if it is possible or not.

I'm not sure what you mean. Start or finish casting what?

Start or finish another spell. That way, you can use the spell to reposition and safely get a spell of your choice off during the nine seconds it gives you, but you can't just timestop and cast three spells with haste and then timestop again to rinse and repeat. I believe this is how the 5th Edition Timestop spell works as well, it is a tactical tool that gives you an opportunity to get to safety or get a crucial spell off without being overbearing.

[Norture]

Honestly, if you had my full opinion, I'd eliminate Time Stop. Now yes, I know, that's not in PnP... but I'm still of the personal opinion that controlling Time is an absolutely powerful concept, and is something that should be out of the hands of player characters. I really would say that it shouldn't even be a learnable spell. I think it's an ability that once achieved, is nearly the equivalent of godliness. I'm all for magic, I'm all for mages, but.. Time? Time stands still for no one! I wish it wasn't even possible in DnD.

From what I read it's not that you're stopping time, it's that you're casting extreme haste on yourself so you move like the flash.

[SingASongOfDeath]

Personally, I do dislike Time Stop in the current form.

It /is/ easy, and if you know what you're doing; it is a "win" button.

Not just for CvC, but also in dungeons.
It's also not so much a "nerf" for wizards and sorcerers, but a push for them to
think more creatively at high levels. They already are an "unstoppable force",
to quote another. This is more along the lines of correcting an imbalance.

[julienchab]

Personally, I do dislike Time Stop in the current form.

It /is/ easy, and if you know what you're doing; it is a "win" button.

Not just for CvC, but also in dungeons.
It's also not so much a "nerf" for wizards and sorcerers, but a push for them to
think more creatively at high levels. They already are an "unstoppable force",
to quote another. This is more along the lines of correcting an imbalance.

You can still get totally destroyed in dungeons, even with timestop. I've seen it numerous times, and the lastest was this week, when Malthor just instadestroy Natalie without her being able to do anything about it. Yes timestop is strong, but it is not always a instawin situation.

[qwertyuioppp]

Holy shit yes
Nerf Time Stop, cut it from the game, destroy it, expunge it from the collective memory. Straight up, even if it wasn't enough justification to go with a more PnP version, which it is, Time Stop is an unfair, imbalanced mechanic which adds nothing to the game. Sure, Ravenloft is meant to be unfair, but there's varying levels of unfair. There's being outmatched 2v1 and then there's "you can't move for 12 seconds while someone else gets to explode you with spells indiscriminately" - for as many casts of TS, and as many scrolls of it, they have.

I've been on the receiving and casting end of it, and it's annoying on both sides. I don't think a nerf is enough, honestly; if you want a get-out-of-jail free spell, we've already got Greater Sanctuary which is bullshit powerful. It is an imbalanced mechanic and it should be stripped from NPCs and PCs alike in its current form.

[McNastea]

Holy shit yes
Nerf Time Stop, cut it from the game, destroy it, expunge it from the collective memory. Straight up, even if it wasn't enough justification to go with a more PnP version, which it is, Time Stop is an unfair, imbalanced mechanic which adds nothing to the game. Sure, Ravenloft is meant to be unfair, but there's varying levels of unfair. There's being outmatched 2v1 and then there's "you can't move for 12 seconds while someone else gets to explode you with spells indiscriminately" - for as many casts of TS, and as many scrolls of it, they have.

I've been on the receiving and casting end of it, and it's annoying on both sides. I don't think a nerf is enough, honestly; if you want a get-out-of-jail free spell, we've already got Greater Sanctuary which is bullshit powerful. It is an imbalanced mechanic and it should be stripped from NPCs and PCs alike in its current form.

[DM Tarokka]

I believe the spell should be more similar to the PnP rules, as other things have been adapted to it in time, not just spells. I would let out other personal considerations from this thread.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

I have never cast Timestop, and I don't recall that it's ever been cast on me on this server. Thus, my position at the beginning of the thread was indifferent. Reading the arguments, however, I would summarize them in this way:

Side 1: Timestop is ridiculously over-powered as is and not in line with PnP or what has been done to other NWN elements to bring them into line.

Side 2: All that is true, but so what?

The counter argument does not seem strong, given the apparent passion of side 1. If it is objectively over-powered such that this claim cannot be rebutted (and assuming that unfairness can easily be remedied),  then it prima facie ought to be fixed, no?

Saying it rarely happens or only a couple of players can do it does not rebut that it is OP. Saying that high level casters should be very powerful does not rebut it is OP, if the casters can easily beat others of the same level through its use. Everyone who is 20th level has put in equivalent effort to take their character to that achievement. (ETA: Worse, if a single X level PC can use Timestop to beat multiple X level PCs.)

I would like someone to evidence there are effective ways to counter Timestop or prepare against it. If there are no effective counter-measures, then it does seem as someone characterized it, a "Win Button."

If anyone did describe ways to beat it, I missed that.

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

I have never cast Timestop, and I don't recall that it's ever been cast on me on this server. Thus, my position at the beginning of the thread was indifferent. Reading the arguments, however, I would summarize them in this way:

Side 1: Timestop is ridiculously over-powered as is and not in line with PnP or what has been done to other NWN elements to bring them into line.

Side 2: All that is true, but so what?

The counter argument does not seem strong, given the apparent passion of side 1. If it is objectively over-powered such that this claim cannot be rebutted (and assuming that unfairness can easily be remedied),  then it prima facie ought to be fixed, no?

Saying it rarely happens or only a couple of players can do it does not rebut that it is OP. Saying that high level casters should be very powerful does not rebut it is OP, if the casters can easily beat others of the same level through its use. Everyone who is 20th level has put in equivalent effort to take their character to that achievement. (ETA: Worse, if a single X level PC can use Timestop to beat multiple X level PCs.)

I would like someone to evidence there are effective ways to counter Timestop or prepare against it. If there are no effective counter-measures, then it does seem as someone characterized it, a "Win Button."

If anyone did describe ways to beat it, I missed that.

I think (though its usually hard to do!) if you're SR is high enough you can resist it. Long ago I had a high SR lvl 20 halfling monk who while buffed by a similarly high lvl wizard resisted it if i'm remembering things right!

[qwertyuioppp]

Spell Resistance will do nothing, saves will do nothing, there's no way to stop it except by being out of the cast range, which is usually most, if not all of a zone.

[MJ_Johansson]

Spell resistance does not work against Timestop, spell mantle doesnt either. Infact, nothing does. It -is- an I-win button. And as a Player who has frequently used it and had it used against me to both insta-win and get insta-destroyed in both PvP and PvE, I say..

Nerf it. Sithicus can be beat without it, we've done it before. Its a great safety net to have when things go wrong, it really is, but there are other ways to get through Sithicus, like bringing extra people who can take over if your frontline golem gets dispelled. All sithicus visiting people know what I mean there.

For PvP, it's pretty disgusting how strong it is, really. Completely, and entirely uncounterable (Except for counterspelling, which only works if you're also a ninth lvl mage with either TS yourself, or Mordenkainens). I'd be very happy to see it put invulnerability on everyone, because at that point, you can use it to buff and reposition, and its still a very strong spell, but once it ends and you can go offensive, people can actually react and -do- something to survive, which is alot better than just be dead with nothing you can do about it.

Edited for typos and stuff.

That's my 2 cents as the player of Natalie, who as Norture said, has indeed floored people with Timestop.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Personally, I think that even if it's a very powerful spell, there has to be spell like that...the day time stop gets nerf an other spell will take its place becoming the strongest spell, and so on...

It's a lvl 9 spell, once a caster is high lvl enough to get those spells, which doesn't happen so often, it's normal that he/she is able to cast spells as strong as this. Yes Timestop is strong, yes it pretty much an insta win if you play it well. But it's time stop... when you are able to stop time, you are op.

I'm personally against nerfing time stop, either remove it completely or leave it like this. IMO if a character is able to stop time, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to hurt people around him/her while doing it.

[MJ_Johansson]

Yes, true, there'll always be a "the strongest spell", however.. Is there any other spell at all, or any other feat, or anything else in the game right now, that has no save, cannot be resisted or dodged, can not be countered?

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Nope, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong having a spell like that. 

As I said, I totally agree with the fact that timestop is overpowered, but to me it seems normal that someone who's able to stop time for a brief moment is able to kill or deal pretty serious damage to someone within that brief moment.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

For a game to be interesting and creative, it's okay to have something very strong that wins in most situations. But if it wins in all situations, then there's no point in playing.

(rock, scissors, paper)

[Syl]

while I do not have a spellcaster I have friends that are and I've watched them level steadily after reaching a certain level. BUT this is about timestop

I can say, yes it is a relatively Over powering spell compared to it's PnP counter part, the duration has already been reduced if I recall. In PvP WAY WAAAAY to strong in my opinion to be able to take out five plus people while under timestop is rather insane.

but their might be a bit more of a simple way to recued it's strength.

I've always looked at magic as still taking a toll on the caster, the stronger the spells the faster they get exhausted. wizards just starting out could become exhausted easier since they are just beginning to use magic. So why not put say a timer on 9th circle spells since they are so strong? Shadow Dancers have a 12 second timer for HIPS which works just fine why can't some spells to balance them out? people can still be vulnerable but the caster can only say use that spell once per I don't know... 12 seconds as well?

I will say I rather enjoy seeing the sorc saving the party when things are going bad with A timestop. But it is just a bit much when many are cast back to back.

Just my thoughts

[MJ_Johansson]

A timer is also a good compromise, yes. Perhaps longer than 12 seconds, seeing how it can last up to 5 rounds on a good roll. Which is a bit too long, but that's another matter.

[snowfox]

I feel it is worth reiterating that the change has two possible reasonings working in tandem behind it: The relative power of timestop on the one hand, and continuing the work to be a more faithful rendition of the ruleset -as it should be-.

On the note of "what works against it" - there is a slight chance that, if a Black Blade of Disaster is currently active and close to an enemy, it will continue to attack. So far I have seen it happen twice.

[Mereyn]

Nope, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong having a spell like that. 

As I said, I totally agree with the fact that timestop is overpowered, but to me it seems normal that someone who's able to stop time for a brief moment is able to kill or deal pretty serious damage to someone within that brief moment.

Sadly that's not the case with Time Stop as a spell, though. It doesn't cease the flow of time. Not at all, actually.
What it does is accelerate the caster to the point of being so fast, nothing else could even react. This works because time is based on perception, among other things.
The primary point is the faithfulness to the core material, and perhaps, for lack of a better word, encourage creativity in casters who have enjoyed their position for very long.

It's a cookie cutter, and if one indulges the large list of spells a wizard and sorcerer may know, there are other ways of achieving a similar effect.
Time Stop would still preserve the one thing it was always meant to do - give you the upper hand in destroying whatever advantage on initiative your opponent may have.
Be that by avoiding their attack through Time Stop, carefully repositioning - or even buffing yourself defensively in the nick of time. Note that Time Stop would also allow spells like:

• Delayed Blast Fireball
  
• Incendiary Cloud
• etc.

to be cast while the effect lasts.

So everything you'll really need is a little bit of intuition and interest to change the way you play.
And I find that to be the most important thing when playing D&D; being able to approach encounters in a fluid manner.

[DM Cataclysm]

[a wild Mika appears...!]

As one of the 2 or 3 people who can use this spell, I feel it is obligatory for me to weigh in. To address a few of the previous points here:

Abuse - Haven't really ever seen it. Anyone I've seen able to use this spell is pretty respectful about it. Not to say this couldn't happen, but if one of the members of the grand order of timestoppers went crazy, the other members of this sacred guild would probably nuke them (that's right Natalie, I'm always warching...!)

PvP - Is this a win button for PvP? Absolutely! You know what else is? Haste/True Strike/Knockdown Spam! In the three+ years I've been here, I've seen PvP on a large number of occasions where a character much lower than the Mage in question completely obliterates them with this method. Until a Mage reaches timestop level, they're actually pretty easily to take down. This is part of the concept of the class, but I do feel like if you keep a Mage alive long enough to get level 9 spells, it's justified to have something of this strength. Save for a few, there aren't a lot of other fantastic level 9 spells when you compare them to level 8 arcane spells or level 9 divine spells (I could write 37 more paragraphs on that, but I'll stop).

PnP - We base a lot on PnP and sticking to those concepts in many cases is great. However - there's a lot of benefit in PnP that we don't get because of system limitations or the impracticality of adding them on the server. There are quite a few feats that would benefit spellcasters (see my thread on spell knowledge!) and a lot of spells that are generally less effective on the server. Summoning spells, for example - allow you to select what is summoned in PnP. Shapechange allows you to select any non-unique creature equivalent to your HD and obtain all of their supernatural abilities (firebreath anyone?). And I'd love to be able to cast Wish (this would obviously require DM oversight every time, so impractical). There are a lot of other examples, but point being - having some benefits (no casting reagents, a few more powerful spells) seems fairly justified given the drawbacks.

Ninja looting - Yerrp. I've done it. I've timestopped and looted them chests real good. I actually think it's pretty cool to get some of the rather unseen equipment circulating in the server. I don't do it as much as I used to, but ...... I regret nothing!! Also, if we're talking about magic/nonroguey ways to loot, there is arguably a much more effective method than timestop that I won't mention.

Nerf it? - As you can guess, my stance is (mostly) no. I honestly feel like the difficulty in keeping a Mage alive and the lack of a lot of other PnP benefits justifies this spell as it is now. I also think it would further lessen visits to higher level areas. Perfidus/Sithicus aren't visited frequently as is. It certainly wouldn't be impossible to manage them without the current timestop - but it would require a much larger party to hold some of the hellball/greater ruin/dispelling creatures and higher level characters are already in short supply these days.

I do think Syl has brought up a very good point. Chaining timestops together is where I think a line is crossed. I'm not sure how scripting for timers works, but could you prevent the use of another timestop spell while the original casting is active and start a 12-second timer from the point that the original spell ends?

[Mika will be publishing this post in hardback and paperback versions, due to its completely excessive length. Reserve your copy today!]

[DM Tarokka]

I don't think the last post added much to the pros of timestop as it is but in fact added to the cons... I may be opinionated on the matter though...

[MJ_Johansson]

Abuse - Haven't really ever seen it. Anyone I've seen able to use this spell is pretty respectful about it. Not to say this couldn't happen, but if one of the members of the grand order of timestoppers went crazy, the other members of this sacred guild would probably nuke them (that's right Natalie, I'm always warching...!)

[julienchab]

[a wild Mika appears...!]

As one of the 2 or 3 people who can use this spell, I feel it is obligatory for me to weigh in. To address a few of the previous points here:

Abuse - Haven't really ever seen it. Anyone I've seen able to use this spell is pretty respectful about it. Not to say this couldn't happen, but if one of the members of the grand order of timestoppers went crazy, the other members of this sacred guild would probably nuke them (that's right Natalie, I'm always warching...!)

PvP - Is this a win button for PvP? Absolutely! You know what else is? Haste/True Strike/Knockdown Spam! In the three+ years I've been here, I've seen PvP on a large number of occasions where a character much lower than the Mage in question completely obliterates them with this method. Until a Mage reaches timestop level, they're actually pretty easily to take down. This is part of the concept of the class, but I do feel like if you keep a Mage alive long enough to get level 9 spells, it's justified to have something of this strength. Save for a few, there aren't a lot of other fantastic level 9 spells when you compare them to level 8 arcane spells or level 9 divine spells (I could write 37 more paragraphs on that, but I'll stop).

PnP - We base a lot on PnP and sticking to those concepts in many cases is great. However - there's a lot of benefit in PnP that we don't get because of system limitations or the impracticality of adding them on the server. There are quite a few feats that would benefit spellcasters (see my thread on spell knowledge!) and a lot of spells that are generally less effective on the server. Summoning spells, for example - allow you to select what is summoned in PnP. Shapechange allows you to select any non-unique creature equivalent to your HD and obtain all of their supernatural abilities (firebreath anyone?). And I'd love to be able to cast Wish (this would obviously require DM oversight every time, so impractical). There are a lot of other examples, but point being - having some benefits (no casting reagents, a few more powerful spells) seems fairly justified given the drawbacks.

Ninja looting - Yerrp. I've done it. I've timestopped and looted them chests real good. I actually think it's pretty cool to get some of the rather unseen equipment circulating in the server. I don't do it as much as I used to, but ...... I regret nothing!! Also, if we're talking about magic/nonroguey ways to loot, there is arguably a much more effective method than timestop that I won't mention.

Nerf it? - As you can guess, my stance is (mostly) no. I honestly feel like the difficulty in keeping a Mage alive and the lack of a lot of other PnP benefits justifies this spell as it is now. I also think it would further lessen visits to higher level areas. Perfidus/Sithicus aren't visited frequently as is. It certainly wouldn't be impossible to manage them without the current timestop - but it would require a much larger party to hold some of the hellball/greater ruin/dispelling creatures and higher level characters are already in short supply these days.

I do think Syl has brought up a very good point. Chaining timestops together is where I think a line is crossed. I'm not sure how scripting for timers works, but could you prevent the use of another timestop spell while the original casting is active and start a 12-second timer from the point that the original spell ends?

[Mika will be publishing this post in hardback and paperback versions, due to its completely excessive length. Reserve your copy today!]

Thank you for expression what I think in a much better way then I ever could. Even if I don't want to see timestop nerfed, I also think that a timing in between timestop would be pretty nice

[DM Tarokka]

'He killed Angua [Carrot's girlfriend]. Doesn't that mean anything to you?'
Carrot nodded.
[Carrot] 'Yes. But personal isn't the same as important.'

(Terry Pratchett, "Men at Arms")

[Telkar]

Well, as usual I side with the 3.5 rules (with minor exceptions), cause that's the baseline I like in general. If we see that it is somehow unbalancing, then we can change it from the baseline.

But I agree with Mika on the PvP part. Many other classes have (near to) instant kill capabilities (especially against mages in a surprise attack). So changing the spell on the premise of taking away mages' instant kill capabilities does not seem reasonable to me.