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Author Topic: High Mord & Low Mord  (Read 7692 times)

Miuo

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High Mord & Low Mord
« on: March 09, 2016, 05:58:25 PM »
For as long as iv played here LM and HM have always been rp'ed as completely separated languages. But now during some rp with a group a issue of sorts was raised. That a player was told by a DM that if you know one you know the other. That they are eventually one language.

But part of the language thread specifies "this language is separated into two distinct dialects with entirely different vocabularies and even different grammar. "High" Mordentish is spoken by the nobility, while "Low" Mordentish is spoken by the common folk. The mingling of these two dialects has created an incredibly flexible language that is widely regarded throughout the world as the language of literature."

Given the emphasis put on how the languages each have their own grammar and are two distinct dialects. It seems more likely that they basically have to be learned as two seperate languages due to such distinct differences between two dialects.

What is the official ruling on such? That its one language "Mordentish" or that the two dialects are seen as two languages?

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2016, 06:02:05 PM »
As a note, during a DM encounter, I role-played that my character (a speaker of LM) did not understand HM from the NPC, but was corrected.

Quote
The mingling of these two dialects has created an incredibly flexible language

This seems to back that up. But the rest of that quote is contradictory to that...

Also, here:
This explains that HM isn't Faux-French, and that the language is really just a melting pot of various dialects! This makes sense, since inventing many, many languages for the setting would be incredibly difficult: these are just substitutes! After all, if an actual French-speaker from Gothic Earth came along, they would have to clarify that they were speaking French, not High Mordentish.

More information:

Quote
HIGH MORDENTISH & LOW MORDENTISH (Mordentish dialect)
There are two similar yet subtly different dialects of Mordentish, one spoken by the nobility and another, coarser version spoken by the common folk with a more cockneyed accent. While the two dialects mostly blend, a good number of phrases can still be misunderstood. This experience can come as a surprise to the traveler who thinks themselves fluent in the local tongue, only to occasionally find large gaps in their understanding of the speaker. As for the tongue itself, it is a deep, rather guttural language whose dichotomous origins are clearly evident with shorthand expressions and rather standoffish utterances, used liberally throughout everyday life by even the most refined aristocrats. On the other hand, Mordentish is also the language of great literature. Mordentish folk in a formal environment can summon up concise but eloquent language to rival any orator.

Quote
However, a PC who has a rank in or understands one of these dialects can get the gist of what most folk speaking the other dialect are getting at. However, misunderstandings are not uncommon.

Quote
Generally, class defines the use of the two dialects: High Mordentish is spoken by the upper classes and the wanna-be’s, while Low Mordentish is reserved for peasants and farmers.

The dialect thing makes sense for this last bit, since common folk and gentry would definitely not speak an entirely different language, and be incomprehensible to one another.

Correct me if this is all wrong!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 06:21:45 PM by Danta »

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 06:08:01 PM »
I don't like the idea that they are dialects, when one is clearly Anglo-Saxon, and the other is modern French.  To me, this is another example of the Ravenloft writers poor planning in trying to tie domains together using languages.  See: Balok (Romanian) being spoken in Invidia (Catalonian Spain), or in Borca (Italy).

But, if it's the lore, I guess it's the lore.

Jeebs

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2016, 06:25:58 PM »
Another way to look at it would be the difference between Canadian French and Parisian French. While they are technically the same language, the slang and expressions each uses is often foreign to the other. I remember when I was a teenager, two of my friends from Québec went to France... and apparently they got told to come back when they learned how to speak French. So my point is, while the two languages may be different dialects of the same root language, they can simultaneously be very confusing for someone who isn't familiar with them. Sadly, I can't think of a good example to illustrate my point right now...

Arawn

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2016, 06:37:45 PM »
But, if it's the lore, I guess it's the lore.

Yep.

The two "dialects" use only one language slot. Regional variations: in Dementlieu, they almost never use the LM dialect; in Mordent, they use both; in Borca, the aristocracy uses HM but the commoners Balok. Everyone can more or less understand anyone else.
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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2016, 06:40:48 PM »
The problem is that High Mordentish, for all intent and purpose, is modern French whereas Low Mordentish is either Middle English or Anglo-saxon (can't remember). The words used are -very- different. You can check the Gazetteer III primers for suggested words.

It's obvious that for Mordentish, they tried to replicate the effect of the Norman invasion on England and its impact on language (the French language spoken by the nobility and the English language spoken by the masses at first) and how they became one. Obviously, Dementlieu didn't invade Mordent.

edit: Also, I think one of the major causes of confusion is that two different writers worked on Dementlieu and Mordent and clearly they had a different interpretation of what Mordentish was. In the Mordent entry, there is no mention at all of Low/High Mordentish, whereas in the Dementlieu (and Verbrek) entry, they clearly separate the two as two dialects.

Here's what Gaz III says about the use of Mordentish in Dementlieu and Mordent:

Dementlieuse use of Mordentish:
Spoiler: show
Quote
Mordentish is the primary language of Dementlieu. It is a curious tongue, in that it has two quite distinct dialects. I could find no particular explanation for the two diverse dialects and can only assume that they are the result of some long forgotten merging of two separate languages. In total, the language is very flexible, with a wide vocabulary. Generally, class defines the use of the two dialects: High Mordentish is spoken by the upper classes, while Low Mordentish is reserved for peasants and farmers.

High Mordentish is a very soft language, forsaking the harsh consonants of a language such as Lamordian for rolling vowels, silent consonants, and a structure that seems to string words together seamlessly in a lyrical, almost sensuous cadence. One particularly amorous gentleman described High Mordentish to me as "the only language in which love can truly be expressed." His subsequent attempt to demonstrate this point left me unconvinced, however.

Low Mordentish has a more forceful tone than the High dialect and uses more harsh consonants. Extensive use is made of compound words – for example, a "child murderer" is simply child (beam) plus murderer (myrthra), giving "bearri-myrthra."

In Dementlieu, the High dialect is predominantly in common usage. Virtually all of the commoners also speak High Mordentish, particularly if they work in or near any of the areas frequented by nobles. In their homes, however, they are more likely to revert to Low Mordentish. All forms of artistic expression in Dementlieu are performed in High Mordentish at the command of the Council of Brilliance.


Mordent's use of Mordentish:
Spoiler: show
Quote
I understand that originally there were two similar yet subtly different dialects of Mordentish, one spoken by the nobility and another, coarser version spoken by the common folk. While the two dialects have since blended into one tongue owing to the depredations of time and the disappearance of the noble class, a good number of phrases and even some isolated pockets of the dialects yet remain, especially in the more remote reaches of the region. This experience can come as a surprise to the traveler who, like myself, thinks herself fluent in the local tongue, only to occasionally find large gaps in her understanding even when she is certain the person to whom she is speaking is still addressing her in the same language! Naturally, I have done my best to catalogue a number of these words and phrases in an effort to prepare others who might face the same difficulty; a primer can be found later on in this account.

As for the tongue itself, it is a deep, rather guttural language whose dichotomous origins are clearly evident when one listens to it. The language is a curious mixture of shorthand expressions and rather standoffish utterances, which are used liberally throughout everyday life by even the most refined aristocrats, balanced against a tendency to describe certain things at great length, often with very descriptive and elaborate metaphors. Common people or those long accustomed to each other's company can have whole conversations with nothing more than a brief exchange of rapid, almost unintelligible short phrases.

On the other hand, Mordentish folk meeting each other in a formal environment or who wish to display great respect to another can summon up concise but eloquent language to rival any orator. The effect can be quite jarring, especially if one has only known a Mordentish acquaintance in one capacity or the other. To hear a refined aristocratic colleague converse in the hearty banter of the innkeeper or a hired maid address one as politely as any society matron can be a disconcerting experience.


And for completeness' sake, what the Ravenloft Campaign Setting book says:

Spoiler: show
Quote
Mordentish: This language is divided into two distinct dialects with markedly different vocabularies. "High" Mordentish is preferred by the upper classes, while speaking the "Low" dialect marks one as a commoner. Scholars posit that this linguistic cleft may have arisen from an imperfect melding of two separate, now-forgotten languages. The result is a highly flexible language that has spread throughout the northwestern Core. Due to its association with the culturally advanced domains of the northwest, Mordentish is widely considered the language of literature.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 06:47:33 PM by EO »

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2016, 06:48:26 PM »
Another way to look at it would be the difference between Canadian French and Parisian French. While they are technically the same language, the slang and expressions each uses is often foreign to the other. I remember when I was a teenager, two of my friends from Québec went to France... and apparently they got told to come back when they learned how to speak French. So my point is, while the two languages may be different dialects of the same root language, they can simultaneously be very confusing for someone who isn't familiar with them. Sadly, I can't think of a good example to illustrate my point right now...

Spanish.  Nearly everyone in Central and South America uses it, but put individuals from different countries in the same room, and I promise they will confuse the hell out of each other.  The main problem is that while the words may be pronounced the same and have a common root, the meaning of the words varies from country to country.  In Mexico, maguey is a fruit.  But in other countries, it's a vulgar slang.  They are pronounced the same, recognized when heard, but symbolize different meanings.  And this happens in the same country, even.  Ecuador and Chile, for example.  Coast or lowland meanings vary when compared to terms spoken from those who live in the mountains or highlands. 
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Miuo

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2016, 07:27:29 PM »
But, if it's the lore, I guess it's the lore.

Yep.

The two "dialects" use only one language slot. Regional variations: in Dementlieu, they almost never use the LM dialect; in Mordent, they use both; in Borca, the aristocracy uses HM but the commoners Balok. Everyone can more or less understand anyone else.

Just to doubly clarify and so everyone can be on the same page. The above is the official view of the language that we should all be playing by?

Arawn

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2016, 07:34:30 PM »
Yes.
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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2016, 08:15:32 PM »
I don't like the idea that they are dialects, when one is clearly Anglo-Saxon, and the other is modern French.  To me, this is another example of the Ravenloft writers poor planning in trying to tie domains together using languages.  See: Balok (Romanian) being spoken in Invidia (Catalonian Spain), or in Borca (Italy).

But, if it's the lore, I guess it's the lore.
It's not poor planning at all, and in fact shows that they did their research.

Mordent is based on England, specifically the parts of Bram Stoker's Dracula set in the English countryside.

Now, the modern English language, the language we are speaking right now, is derived from two parent languages: Old English (the language of the Anglo-Saxon people) and French. This is due to William the Conquerer, the French-speaking Duke of Normandy, conquering England in 1066. William established a French-speaking noble class while the peasants continued to speak Anglo-Saxon. Over the centuries, the two languages began to meld until the modern English language was "born" c. 1500 or so.

Mordent's intermixing of the two dialects reflects this "melding" period of the English language, often referred to as "Middle English."

EDIT: also, Invidia is based on Italy, not Spain.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 08:17:11 PM by Bluebomber4evr »

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2016, 08:04:05 PM »
Now, the modern English language, the language we are speaking right now, is derived from two parent languages: Old English (the language of the Anglo-Saxon people) and French. This is due to William the Conquerer, the French-speaking Duke of Normandy, conquering England in 1066. William established a French-speaking noble class while the peasants continued to speak Anglo-Saxon. Over the centuries, the two languages began to meld until the modern English language was "born" c. 1500 or so.

(Parenthesis, it was especially due to the Hundred Years War that the English language and identity amongst the nobility began to emerge as separate and distinct from the French nobility.)
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herkles

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2016, 09:09:56 PM »
So if you have High mordentish as a language, do you also know Low Mordentish and if so does that take up a language slot?


Arawn

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2016, 09:26:10 PM »
So if you have High mordentish as a language, do you also know Low Mordentish and if so does that take up a language slot?

If you speak HM, whether or not you can also speak LM depends on the background of your character, but you can understand it, and it does not take up a slot either way.

Essentially, you choose the language 'Mordentish', and what dialect you choose within that language and how you express it is up to you.
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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2016, 04:12:29 PM »
So if you have High mordentish as a language, do you also know Low Mordentish and if so does that take up a language slot?
It's really only Mordent (and maybe Richemulot) which speak both dialects with equal frequency. Dementlieuse mostly speak High Mordentish and the people of Verbrek exclusively speak Low Mordentish.

EDIT: re-checked the Gaz 3 and the non-nobility of Dementlieu (i.e. commoners, the poor, peasants, and farmers) speak Low Mordentish in addition to High Mordentish, but usually in the privacy of their homes. Dementlieuse nobles speak High Mordentish exclusively, and commoners who work for or near nobles speak High Mordentish. All forms of artistic expression must be in High Mordentish by law. I've edited my original post to make this clear.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 05:16:34 PM by Bluebomber4evr »

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herkles

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2016, 10:54:19 AM »
So if you have High mordentish as a language, do you also know Low Mordentish and if so does that take up a language slot?
It's really only Mordent (and maybe Richemulot) which speak both dialects with equal frequency. Dementlieuse mostly speak High Mordentish and the people of Verbrek exclusively speak Low Mordentish.

EDIT: re-checked the Gaz 3 and the non-nobility of Dementlieu (i.e. commoners, the poor, peasants, and farmers) speak Low Mordentish in addition to High Mordentish, but usually in the privacy of their homes. Dementlieuse nobles speak High Mordentish exclusively, and commoners who work for or near nobles speak High Mordentish. All forms of artistic expression must be in High Mordentish by law. I've edited my original post to make this clear.

does that mean when the theatere holds events every spoken word must be prefaced with [HM] or [high mordentish] or something to indicate that they are speaking in High mordentish.


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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2016, 12:22:40 PM »
So if you have High mordentish as a language, do you also know Low Mordentish and if so does that take up a language slot?
It's really only Mordent (and maybe Richemulot) which speak both dialects with equal frequency. Dementlieuse mostly speak High Mordentish and the people of Verbrek exclusively speak Low Mordentish.

EDIT: re-checked the Gaz 3 and the non-nobility of Dementlieu (i.e. commoners, the poor, peasants, and farmers) speak Low Mordentish in addition to High Mordentish, but usually in the privacy of their homes. Dementlieuse nobles speak High Mordentish exclusively, and commoners who work for or near nobles speak High Mordentish. All forms of artistic expression must be in High Mordentish by law. I've edited my original post to make this clear.

does that mean when the theatere holds events every spoken word must be prefaced with [HM] or [high mordentish] or something to indicate that they are speaking in High mordentish.

I think it's just assumed that when you're in the domain and doing those sorts of things that it's already being done.
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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2016, 12:36:33 PM »
I actually recommend that if you're speaking any language other than common, you should always put HM etc. tags on it, regardless. Otherwise it leads to arguments later; "My character heard it!" "But it was in HM!" "No it wasn't! No tags!" "I assumed tags!" "But you were just speaking in Common too!".

Moral: Use tags.
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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2016, 12:56:58 PM »
So if you have High mordentish as a language, do you also know Low Mordentish and if so does that take up a language slot?
It's really only Mordent (and maybe Richemulot) which speak both dialects with equal frequency. Dementlieuse mostly speak High Mordentish and the people of Verbrek exclusively speak Low Mordentish.

EDIT: re-checked the Gaz 3 and the non-nobility of Dementlieu (i.e. commoners, the poor, peasants, and farmers) speak Low Mordentish in addition to High Mordentish, but usually in the privacy of their homes. Dementlieuse nobles speak High Mordentish exclusively, and commoners who work for or near nobles speak High Mordentish. All forms of artistic expression must be in High Mordentish by law. I've edited my original post to make this clear.

does that mean when the theatere holds events every spoken word must be prefaced with [HM] or [high mordentish] or something to indicate that they are speaking in High mordentish.
Yep

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2016, 11:01:18 AM »
What language is spoken in sourange and how compatible is it with Mordentish?



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Arawn

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2016, 11:04:38 AM »
What language is spoken in sourange and how compatible is it with Mordentish?

Souragnien, which is supposed to be based on Cajun French. The books do not specify any mutual intelligibility with Mordentish, though, so like any other Romance-derived language being used as a "stand-in" for a Core language, they should be regarded as entirely separate.
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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2016, 11:27:46 AM »
Historically speaking, though, French affected English just for vocabulary, since most of syntax, word formation and primary verbs come directly (with some effort) from Old English. I would not say Middle English is a mix of French and English, because it is simply not. Even for vocabulary, there is a tendency to have some double words for specific things (especially verbs), one coming from Old English and one from French, but one should never forget some words coming directly from Latin when it used to be the "high culture" language.

So, despite partially disagreeing on the use of Low and High Mordentish as being one, I also understand that for some three centuries (that is from William to the Hundred Years War) somehow people in England were actually able to communicate.
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herkles

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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2016, 11:35:10 AM »
What language is spoken in sourange and how compatible is it with Mordentish?

Souragnien, which is supposed to be based on Cajun French. The books do not specify any mutual intelligibility with Mordentish, though, so like any other Romance-derived language being used as a "stand-in" for a Core language, they should be regarded as entirely separate.

my only exception would be souragnien, since it is based on cajun FRENCH. Which is important IMO. Their should be some mutual understanding between the two considering one is a dialect of french and the other is french.  I could buy it if they chose Occitanian or Catalan and so on. But it is based on a french language as is High mordentish.

Now, I am not saying that a dementlieuse and a Souragnien would be able to 100% understand one another, due to different pronucations, meanings and so on, but they should have some idea of what the other is saying. They might not get all the nuances and meanings, and both might view each other as not speaking properly but they would be able to communicate somewhat IMO. Certainly better then if one only knew Balok and the other knew Vaasi.


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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2016, 11:36:59 AM »
It doesn't matter, Herkles. I completely understand your point (as a trained historical linguist!). But it's the rule, and it's there to stop confusion and quibbling.
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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2016, 11:50:28 AM »
What language is spoken in sourange and how compatible is it with Mordentish?

The books do not specify any mutual intelligibility with Mordentish.


Well the Sourangien gazeteer does but that is non canon and why i asked the question. What would be a good canon source of info on Sourange?



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Re: High Mord & Low Mord
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2016, 12:11:01 PM »
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=27981.msg428708#msg428708

Found an old thread about Souragne. I'm curious to as its history as well.  I had assumed that it was inspired by colonial Louisiana and such... but most history I can find seems very, very sparse. Is there any mention of Dementlieuse colonists settling there, at any point? Or is that assuming too much based off of the real life inspiration of a parrell between France and Louisiana?

Was it simply created by the Dark Powers from the Mists in its present state?

(I do find it odd, though I'm not arguing any ruling, that two domains in the game, use the same "represented real life words" to describe the same things... ie, "Masion" for "Mansion", in both HM and Sourangien. I know the writers of the setting tried as best as they could to give things flavor, and to make comprimises)