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Author Topic: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.  (Read 11889 times)

Arawn

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2016, 08:39:58 AM »
You don't need to understand the words to recognize what magical energies are at play and how.
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Pagliacci

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2016, 08:43:27 AM »
You don't need to understand the words to recognize what magical energies are at play and how.

Counterpoint,  if a person is using silent spell and still spell (such as using an item that grants either and using the other one), there's no spellcraft check at all is there?

snowfox

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2016, 09:42:40 AM »
A bard can not cast a silent spell, all bardic magic uses tone and sound as its medium.
And yes, if you can neither see the somatic nor hear the verbal component of a spell, you are unable to identify the spell being cast.

Hatsune

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2016, 09:53:26 AM »
A bard can not cast a silent spell, all bardic magic uses tone and sound as its medium.
And yes, if you can neither see the somatic nor hear the verbal component of a spell, you are unable to identify the spell being cast.

Although such isn't true in NWN engine. You can cast a spell with no somatic components or verbal components, and you still have a casting animation, and people will see it cast through the 'engine system'. NPC's will still react to it, and players will still RP seeing/hearing it.
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snowfox

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2016, 10:02:58 AM »
Yes, that is true. I haven't yet tested to see if there is still the automatic spellcraft check to identify, however - which is what I was trying to point to.

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2016, 01:06:07 AM »
You don't need to understand the words to recognize what magical energies are at play and how.

Counterpoint,  if a person is using silent spell and still spell (such as using an item that grants either and using the other one), there's no spellcraft check at all is there?

I don't think this is true as a concept.  You are assuming that "spellcraft" is an entirely visual or auditory skill, but that is not necessarily an accurate assumption.  Suppose "spellcraft" actually lets you sense magic in a metaphysical sense?  Suppose you can "feel" the mystic or spiritual energies as they gather, even if a typical mundane can see nothing or hear nothing?  Suppose spellcraft can be RP'd in a variety of ways as well?  So for example, an aboriginal shaman will "feel the spirits", whereas a traditional book-wizard would recognize words and signs of power, while a sorcerer might get a tingle in their version of Spidey-sense?

How you RP your skills and feats is as much a part of creative role play as how you RP a storyline.  More creativity is better.


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Pagliacci

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2016, 07:53:19 AM »
You don't need to understand the words to recognize what magical energies are at play and how.

Counterpoint,  if a person is using silent spell and still spell (such as using an item that grants either and using the other one), there's no spellcraft check at all is there?

I don't think this is true as a concept.  You are assuming that "spellcraft" is an entirely visual or auditory skill, but that is not necessarily an accurate assumption.  Suppose "spellcraft" actually lets you sense magic in a metaphysical sense?  Suppose you can "feel" the mystic or spiritual energies as they gather, even if a typical mundane can see nothing or hear nothing?  Suppose spellcraft can be RP'd in a variety of ways as well?  So for example, an aboriginal shaman will "feel the spirits", whereas a traditional book-wizard would recognize words and signs of power, while a sorcerer might get a tingle in their version of Spidey-sense?

How you RP your skills and feats is as much a part of creative role play as how you RP a storyline.  More creativity is better.

Spell craft is the ability to know what a spell is as its being cast taking auditory and visual cues. If a magic user is both still spell and silent spell there are none, the spell just happens without either of these. It allows you to counter-spell before the spell is actually cast.

We're forced to RP in the mechanical constraints of NWN. That's just how it be. I don't necessarily like that either, but it be how it is.

Syl

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2016, 08:26:07 AM »
I've always RPed my Rogues really high spellcraft as her training for using the scrolls and mimicking hand geastures. one would normally see her cure her boredom while the party prepares by mimicking the hand motions of the caster. Just don't try to explain it to her lol give her a headache. At any rate this is about sorcs pretending to be a wizard. Though i'll have to add my two sense in the fact that a wizard does not have their book out 24/7. they can memorize the spells so they have to just go over their book during their rest so... without ANY kind of knowledge of the two, there isn't really a easy way to tell the difference, you would pretty much need to run a endurance contest and see whom could cast more Otherwise if you had a level 10 wiz and sorc stand next to each other and each cast the same spells.. I feel there wouldn't be much of a difference. same words.. same motions.. ( I think) Each one is the same unless Sorcs naturally came with autostill to let them make up their own movements [shrugs]

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booksarefun666

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2016, 12:53:49 PM »
A bit of a nitpick, but I don't think you can have silent spell and still spell on one spell but you can have still spell on a spell that only has somatic component (I.E. Darkness). I imagine it'd still play out as casting darkness, you're just able to do it more sloppy and only hit the necessary gestures.

Even spells with only a verbal component getting silenced would still be going through sign language or some medium that's less efficient - hence the need to take up a higher level spell slot.

That's how I interpret it anyway.

Syl

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2016, 02:09:31 PM »
Yeah, the game mechanics don't allow you to have both still and silent up at the same time. and even still I "Think" there is still hand motion in the game and sound. I do not remember only had 1 character on a server with auto still and autosilent.  I think it takes far more work and strength to cast the spells without either moving or speaking... Or both.

However IF one were to have both autostill and autosilent. they do not take up a spell slot and are treated as active... but these are epic skills.. and there are only robes with 1 or the other on it and only the first feat rank. Useful non the less I suppose. :)

I think that is off topic though.

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McNastea

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2016, 07:28:18 PM »

Spell craft is the ability to know what a spell is as its being cast taking auditory and visual cues. If a magic user is both still spell and silent spell there are none, the spell just happens without either of these. It allows you to counter-spell before the spell is actually cast.

We're forced to RP in the mechanical constraints of NWN. That's just how it be. I don't necessarily like that either, but it be how it is.

I don't know where you got the idea that you need auditory or visual clues for spellcraft. The wiki and ig description are very brief and vague

Quote
Spellcraft is used to identify spells and to perform counterspell.

No where does it say that you need auditory or visual clues, in fact it doesn't specify at all -how- it works ic, only that it does.

So ya know, Munchkin and Arawn right. RP how your character identifies magic, whether they feel the energy as it gathers around and/or in to the caster, recognize the motions or words or whatever. A wizard could take a more scholarly approach and a sorcerer one of intuition, either way it seems to me that the way you go about identifying is left up to the individual.

Plus, you can't double down on meta-magic anyway. There aren't silent-still spells.
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Mereyn

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2016, 03:40:52 AM »
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm
I'd just like to leave this here. This thread has been going on for very damn long, in a discussion which
should now easily be solved by what spellcraft is. You /need/ to see or hear the components, otherwise you'll
just know the spell is happening, when it already happened.

dark_majico

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2016, 03:47:05 AM »
Whats the deal with sorcerers in Dement anyway? Does the OCR system fire up greater for Sorcerers than Wizards, or is it applied to Sorcerers only? Or something totally different?

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2016, 10:42:47 AM »
Wizards can cast spells up to around level 7 spells, though some spells that do weird stuff will startle the NPCs as well. Bards can cast all their spells, I think.

Pagliacci

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2016, 11:48:59 AM »
Whats the deal with sorcerers in Dement anyway? Does the OCR system fire up greater for Sorcerers than Wizards, or is it applied to Sorcerers only? Or something totally different?
\

the NPC's shout "OMG he just cast a spell without using a book how is that possible PANIC!"

Although according to people in this thread wizards also cast spells without using a book so pbbbbt if I know

Syl

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2016, 12:21:16 PM »
Well again it is common sense.. even in the Table top campaigns I played the wizard didn't need a spellbook... Well at least didn't need it out to cast a spell. His tome carries the spells and he can MEMORIZE so many of them a day. So to say they need a book out to cast is a bit... bologna [shrugs]

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2016, 12:35:41 PM »
Hence pbbbbt.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2016, 02:14:35 PM »
Guys its already been stated by the staff that the system has nothing to do with wizards or books and everything to do with attempting to portray the canon stigma of sorcerers in Port-a-Lucine as best as can be done.  Its been acknowledged that the system isn't perfect, but it does achieve that stigma.  There is just no other feasible way to have the NPCs react to sorcerers.



Jeebs

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2016, 04:16:20 PM »
There is just no other feasible way to have the NPCs react to sorcerers.

You'd literally need an army of DMs working around the clock to pull it off properly... and then the server would crash because there's too many people connected to it.

gryphonlotr

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2016, 04:40:22 PM »
Throwing out a middle ground option:

Sorcerers pretending with the book don't make NPCs "freak out" however, each casting does have a chance (based on the number of observers and if any of them have wizard levels) of raising the character's reputation a bit.

ICly, they're skeptical but let it slide at the moment, only to whisper suspicions behind their back.


It would allow sorcerers a bit of room to pretend, while still forcing them to be careful about their magic.
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LeviShultz

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2016, 08:02:24 PM »
Sorcerers pretending with the book don't make NPCs "freak out" however, each casting does have a chance (based on the number of observers and if any of them have wizard levels) of raising the character's reputation a bit.

I think this is a rather creative idea. Maybe sorcerers could make a preform check proportional to the level spell they cast. Something like DC 20 + (spell level/circle)? If they pass they go unnoticed, if they fail NPC's would react much like they do now. A check is made for each NPC in range. They generally have a high charisma so i could see this be a plausible mechanic.
 

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gryphonlotr

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2016, 01:41:17 AM »
Sorcerers pretending with the book don't make NPCs "freak out" however, each casting does have a chance (based on the number of observers and if any of them have wizard levels) of raising the character's reputation a bit.

I think this is a rather creative idea. Maybe sorcerers could make a preform check proportional to the level spell they cast. Something like DC 20 + (spell level/circle)? If they pass they go unnoticed, if they fail NPC's would react much like they do now. A check is made for each NPC in range. They generally have a high charisma so i could see this be a plausible mechanic.

I think to really fit the feel of what the DMs are talking about, casting sorcery needs to always be a risk. To fit that, it can't be something the character can just work into always succeeding at.

Having the NPCs make the check vs something like DC 20-(spell level) with wizards getting a bonus to the roll (maybe + highest spell level they can cast) would fit that better.

Maybe if they make the check, they eye the character suspiciously and one of them makes a inf check with a bonus for each npc that made the first check. Something like that.


As long as they're never sure to get caught, and never sure they'll get away with it, you create an interesting dynamic where the book is always helpful, but never a guarantee.


As for the sorcerer, they already have both their CHA and their Inf dampening damage to their reputation, so there's not much need to have more of their stats helping.
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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2016, 03:14:40 PM »
I'm not terribly knowledgeable about them but isn't one of the big things about sorcerers that they need to learn to control their powers? Isn't that their end-game, whereas a wizard is all about expanding knowledge and probing the unknown and stuff? If that's the case, it makes sense that D-lieu wouldn't appreciate sorcerers very much. Nobody wants their house burned down just because someone stubbed their toe on the coffee table.
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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2016, 03:47:19 PM »
I'm not terribly knowledgeable about them but isn't one of the big things about sorcerers that they need to learn to control their powers? Isn't that their end-game, whereas a wizard is all about expanding knowledge and probing the unknown and stuff? If that's the case, it makes sense that D-lieu wouldn't appreciate sorcerers very much. Nobody wants their house burned down just because someone stubbed their toe on the coffee table.
If sorcerer's can't control their powers then shouldn't their spells be random? :P Like you could cast a fireball and get a spark an inferno, you could try and cast magic armor and give them greater magic armor or a magic armor debuff?


Pagliacci

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Re: Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2016, 03:53:43 PM »
I was always under the impression that sorcerers don't really get to choose their own spell lists. Those are decided by the nature of their powers.

But when they cast them that's what they have to learn to control. Uncontrolled sorcerers might panic and cast a sleep spell.