Sorceror pretending to be a wizard in dementelieu.

[Pagliacci]

This is extremely narrow, but is there a way it would be possible to have an item, say for example, a held book, that would cause people not to freak out when sorcerers cast spell. Because reasonably all the character has to do is open up a book and pretend to be reading from it.

[DM Vinculum]

There are both somatic and vocal components for spell-casting so it's a bit more complex looking. You might fool the untrained eye, but keep in mind that the domain has a number of scholarly PCs and NPCs who would could theoretically recognize it's an act.

[Pagliacci]

This is true, but I was talking about the common Not-France NPC's (The nobles and the gendarmes) who really shouldn't know the difference.

[A normal snake]

I like that idea. The idea with sorcerers is Dementlieu rejects the idea that people can be born with magic, and only the educated elite know otherwise. It might be interesting to see sorcerers pretend to be wizards to be accepted.

[Pagliacci]

Like I said, it doesn't seem that hard. THe somatic and verbal components are the same, the only difference is they just come naturally from within the sorceror rather then having to scribe the 99% of the spell into the wizards grimoire first.

In a way, when you think about it, that 99% is inscribed on the Sorcerers soul.

[Merry Munchkin]

This is extremely narrow, but is there a way it would be possible to have an item, say for example, a held book, that would cause people not to freak out when sorcerers cast spell. Because reasonably all the character has to do is open up a book and pretend to be reading from it.

You need to invent the selfie-stick, for scrolls and small spellbooks, that can be harnessed around your neck or waist or something (sort of like a third arm). 

You could even invent an itty bitty booklight to go on top of it, to make it more authentic. 

[EO]

That point was brought up before when implementing OcR in Dementlieu; OcR is really a rough mechanical way to portray something that would be more nuanced and complex in a PnP session where the DM is omnipotent and omniscient.

In this case, what we want to portray is how sorcerers in Dementlieu have to hide and are treated as outcasts and an efficient way to do that is through the OcR system. If sorcerers could just use a book to pretend they are wizards, this would defeat that purpose and we wouldn't be representing that alienation anymore. Dementlieu is no carebear land and the social status is very important, even vital; and sorcerers are supposed to be outcasts, on the fringes. The current system helps represent that, even if it has to take a few shortcuts to do so.

[herkles]

I am curious how they can tell that wizards are actually wizards. Is it like in pillars of Eternity, where you MUST walk around with a spellbook around and read from it to cast spells as a wizard, or is it just memorizing it and then putting the spell book away and casting the spell without reading?

[Pagliacci]

IU'm pretty sure in DnD all wizards of the base class (wizard) carry around a grimoire and have to actually read from it in order to cast their spell.

Magic, at least how I understand it, is all ritual in DnD. Every single spell requires preparation and ritual. Wizards simplify that process by scribing out 99% of the ritual in their spell tome, and then memorizing the last bit. Then they pull out the tome, find the appropriate ritual, and finish the last few syllables.

[snowfox]

A wizard does not need his book to cast a spell once prepared, he only needs it to prepare the spell at rest. There is no way to tell wizards and sorcerers apart when untrained in the Art, unless you happen to watch them at rest of course.

[Tycat]

What about making the book required for wizards to cast at all?

[snowfox]

What about making the book required for wizards to cast at all?

Again, the book is not a required component of casting. How would the wizard perform somatic components that require free movement of all limbs with a book in his hands?

[Pagliacci]

Aren't the spells one handed? I know they need a spellbook on their person and if a wizard loses their spellbook they've essentially lost all their spells.

[Jeebs]

Out of curiosity, how does this affect bards? As I understand it, their approach to magic is very similar to that of a sorcerer in that it's an innate or instinctual thing. I would imagine they'd be treated in much the same way.

[snowfox]

Aren't the spells one handed? I know they need a spellbook on their person and if a wizard loses their spellbook they've essentially lost all their spells.

It is not usually specified, but the SRD says that any somatic component requires "at least" one free hand.

Out of curiosity, how does this affect bards? As I understand it, their approach to magic is very similar to that of a sorcerer in that it's an innate or instinctual thing. I would imagine they'd be treated in much the same way.

Bardic magic is relatively easy to tell apart from what a wizard or sorcerer does, because they have reduced somatic components/easier movements, which is why they can cast in light armor without incurring arcane spell failure in 3.5.

[Merry Munchkin]

What about making the book required for wizards to cast at all?

Again, the book is not a required component of casting. How would the wizard perform somatic components that require free movement of all limbs with a book in his hands?

There was actually an excellent series of articles in "Dragon" magazine years back that was devoted solely to extensive discussion about spellbooks.  In the traditional AD&D milieu, a wizard would have all their spells written down in a spellbook or series of spellbooks, then study and memorize the handful that they were capable of using at one go, and leave their spellbook safe back at home.  Memorizing spells took days to do in PnP, and spellbooks traditionally never got lugged around with the wizard, as they were too bulky and too valuable to lose (in fact, finding a magic user's spellbook was prize loot back in the day).

NWN changed that around just as a matter of game mechanics (you can memorize stuff quickly, once per rest).  But in neither incarnation was a wizard ever casting directly from their spellbook. 

However, I suppose now this would all be a matter of RP -- there really is no reason why you couldn't RP a wizard that was lugging around a phonebook-sized tome and casting spells from it.  For that matter, you could RP a wizard (or any spellcaster, really) as casting using a variety of mechanisms (feathers, beads, dance moves, etc.).  I remember MAB having a "runecaster" dwarf that used runes on stone tablets -- fun stuff.

[herkles]

What about making the book required for wizards to cast at all?

Again, the book is not a required component of casting. How would the wizard perform somatic components that require free movement of all limbs with a book in his hands?

There was actually an excellent series of articles in "Dragon" magazine years back that was devoted solely to extensive discussion about spellbooks.  In the traditional AD&D milieu, a wizard would have all their spells written down in a spellbook or series of spellbooks, then study and memorize the handful that they were capable of using at one go, and leave their spellbook safe back at home.  Memorizing spells took days to do in PnP, and spellbooks traditionally never got lugged around with the wizard, as they were too bulky and too valuable to lose (in fact, finding a magic user's spellbook was prize loot back in the day).

NWN changed that around just as a matter of game mechanics (you can memorize stuff quickly, once per rest).  But in neither incarnation was a wizard ever casting directly from their spellbook. 

However, I suppose now this would all be a matter of RP -- there really is no reason why you couldn't RP a wizard that was lugging around a phonebook-sized tome and casting spells from it.  For that matter, you could RP a wizard (or any spellcaster, really) as casting using a variety of mechanisms (feathers, beads, dance moves, etc.).  I remember MAB having a "runecaster" dwarf that used runes on stone tablets -- fun stuff.

While that is all cool, and I mean it as it is cool, how does one tell the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard if they don't cast from spellbooks?

[Merry Munchkin]

The wizard looks the the eyeglass-wearing nerd you picked on in high school, and the sorcerer looks like the pretty-faced bad-boy that all the cheerleaders swooned over? 

[McNastea]

That's the gaping hole in the current system I guess. I understand the want to differentiate between the two and push one to the fringe of society while allowing another within, but from what I see there are either the people who just take it for what it is; a system put in place to have npc's sometimes react to certain people in a way to enforce the settings attitude towards them without the presence of a dm, while other players look at it and try to figure out how to dupe the people (npc's) that this system is using as a means of implementation, and banging their heads in frustration when they inevitably realize how little sense it actually all makes when you look at it for more than a second.

Now, if this system is just to add some flavor when there's no DM present, I don't think it really requires this much thought or worry put in to it. However, if this system, which honestly under even a little bit of scrutiny makes absolutely no sense, is backed by the notion that npc's, -all- npc's, can somehow tell what type of mage you are, well that's silly, in my opinion.

[EO]

Fyi, there is a DnD justification for treating sorcerers differently. In Complete Arcana, they go into detail about how and why sorcerers are perceived differently from wizards and it has to do with that high Charisma they have. Here's the complete reference from Complete Arcana:

Like bards, sorcerers tend to attract attention, but (unlike bards) rarely of the positive kind. Where a wizard might hobble into town and seem little more than a weatherbeaten traveler, revealing his true nature only at his own discretion, a sorcerer tends not to remain anonymous for long, because his personal intensity and charisma draw the eye and linger in the memory. An indefinable but tangible difference often separates the sorcerer from the rest of the world—and when difference is sown, suspicion often grows.

Where a high noble might look to her court wizard for advice and scholarly insight into the doings of her rivals, sorcerers generally have little in the way of a wizard’s formal education and training. Though most sorcerers rarely feel the need to find themselves a patron or to place themselves at a lord’s disposal, those who do often find themselves regarded as more of an arcane weapon than a fount of knowledge, less suited to a role as counselor and tutor than as an elite bodyguard or highly valued special agent.

In the end, whether they are evil or good, most sorcerers simply choose to exist outside the normal circles of human society. Like elemental forces of nature, the most powerful sorcerers will never be directed, either by the concerns of the common folk or the commands of a king.

....

For example, given the differences in each class’s approach to arcane magic, consider how sorcerers and wizards might interact in a campaign. It’s easy to imagine a setting in which wizard magic is “legal,” sanctioned and approved by the powers of the land, while sorcery is considered reckless and dangerous. If the realm is basically a good kingdom, sorcerers might be viewed as agents of evil and chaos regardless of their actual alignment or allegiances. On the other hand, if the realm in question is an iron-fisted tyranny, sorcerers might be fierce freedom fighters who represent the only path of arcane power open to the downtrodden common folk.

[Hatsune]

Buy the book, there should be no distinguishable difference in how a Wizard casts a spell, and a Sorcerer casts a spell. Its the same verbal and somatic components (and in PNP, the same material components).

The only difference in casting would normally be applying metamagics in a pen and paper environment... in which a sorcerer then be using a full-round action, instead of a standard action (thus, it would be more noticable that they have to add more to the casting incantations). In NWN nights, though, there sorcerers don't suffer this slow-down, either.

A spellbook has nothing to do with casting, it is only for 'preparing the spell'. If a wizard prepared, and then burns his book, he can still cast what he has prepared.

So, they really shouldn't be able to tell the diffence (they'd only be able to do that when the character is 'preparing' his spells. And then, i'd think it'd be very tough for a sorcerer to 'fake it', as they have to do their preperation properly, not be fake-reading a book.

But, as EO mentioned, there is very little mechanically that can be done to alienate the sorcerer class in a place that should do so.. so I see this as a fitting incorperation.. even if its not completely 'proper' for how it should be handled it acheives the same effect.

[A normal snake]

Out of curiosity, how does this affect bards? As I understand it, their approach to magic is very similar to that of a sorcerer in that it's an innate or instinctual thing. I would imagine they'd be treated in much the same way.

With bards, it's considered part of their performance art. That's the purpose of being a bard, you're a performer by nature. And generally that's all the general public thinks magic is. There's a book IG that covers the idea of how magic is viewed in Dementlieu:

Spoiler: show

One thing that sets our great nation above and apart is our wide appreciation of arts of all kinds, including the magical arts. While often dismissed, I've noticed no other nation showcases arcane performance nearly as much as ours. One would be hard pressed to wander the streets of Port-à-Lucine without witnessing a performance act. In this, I've taken it upon myself to write about the magicians who dedicate their lives to their performances.

The first thing to stand out is the amount of study required to perform even the simplest illusion. Wizards toil away at their books, planning their routines and shows with the utmost care. Many scoff at their practice as being so much effort wasted into becoming little more than a street performer, however I believe their art highlights the enlightenment of our nation, that such effort could be put into such a fleeting display. We are not barbarians, stuck toiling away in a field all day. We have the intelligence to appreciate higher pursuits in life.

As an art, I see magic as fitting in with the other performing arts. I've encountered musicians and other performers who have figured out how to incorporate magic into their performances. Similarly, some wizards even find work at the theatre. It is a natural progression for magic to find a home with other ephemeral arts.

An oddity I have encountered are magicians who claim they were born with magical powers, so-called sorcerers if you will. After interviewing a handful of them, they claim that magic is a thing that they feel and can simply make happen, much as one would feel happy or sad. These individuals were quite charming and had a personable nature to them, yet at the same time were very loose with their magic casting and seemed quite reckless. I saw no evidence to suggest they were in fact born with magic powers, I believe it is a ruse to set themselves apart from other casters as part of their own show. Or to cover up for their incompetence with the arcane arts and inability to control their spells. I warn all people to be wary of these "sorcerers," at best they are dishonest swindlers, at worst they will set you aflame with their ill-performed shows.

[Jeebs]

Right, that makes sense. The part I don't understand though is that bards cast magic on an instinctual level like sorcerers do... or am I mistaken there? Do they actually learn through study like a wizard, or do they just sort of "feel" how do it? I always saw bards as sorcerers of a different sort, using different methods to cast their spells but still on an instinctual level and lacking the discipline that a wizard would achieve from careful study and experimentation.

[Merry Munchkin]

Right, that makes sense. The part I don't understand though is that bards cast magic on an instinctual level like sorcerers do... or am I mistaken there? Do they actually learn through study like a wizard, or do they just sort of "feel" how do it? I always saw bards as sorcerers of a different sort, using different methods to cast their spells but still on an instinctual level and lacking the discipline that a wizard would achieve from careful study and experimentation.

Why follow a set formula at all?  Your bard can be whatever you want a bard to be -- a Norse skald, a Shakespearean fop, an aboriginal chanter, a blind Greek poet, etc., and they can perform their magic via any avenue that seems to fit the image you want to portray.  Some might learn from books, some might have ancestral songs handed down from a father to son, some might do it from inspiration from a Muse, or genetically inherited a bloodline that can cast spells by wiggling their nose.  How it gets cast is also open to a lot of creativity - song, dance, epic poetry, rockin' guitar licks, shaking the "Ancestral Maracas of Song-Juju", or bad limericks.  If it were up to me, I would give bonus xp for casting via bad limericks.

[Pagliacci]

Right, that makes sense. The part I don't understand though is that bards cast magic on an instinctual level like sorcerers do... or am I mistaken there? Do they actually learn through study like a wizard, or do they just sort of "feel" how do it? I always saw bards as sorcerers of a different sort, using different methods to cast their spells but still on an instinctual level and lacking the discipline that a wizard would achieve from careful study and experimentation.

Why follow a set formula at all?  Your bard can be whatever you want a bard to be -- a Norse skald, a Shakespearean fop, an aboriginal chanter, a blind Greek poet, etc., and they can perform their magic via any avenue that seems to fit the image you want to portray.  Some might learn from books, some might have ancestral songs handed down from a father to son, some might do it from inspiration from a Muse, or genetically inherited a bloodline that can cast spells by wiggling their nose.  How it gets cast is also open to a lot of creativity - song, dance, epic poetry, rockin' guitar licks, shaking the "Ancestral Maracas of Song-Juju", or bad limericks.  If it were up to me, I would give bonus xp for casting via bad limericks.

That bashes its head against Spellcrafting checks though. If this were absolutely true no one could be able to tell what a bard was casting.