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Author Topic: Clerics nerfed big time  (Read 4888 times)

chuuch1

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Clerics nerfed big time
« on: November 19, 2015, 03:05:14 AM »
Ima just go out there and say it :) I think Clerics really came out for the worse in this update and just felt like mentioning it.

There's the removal of one spell slot per level.

Heal spell only heals up to 100HP

Mass Heal only heals up to 100HP

Magic Vestments and GMW only up to +4 AC now - Before, you got +5 once you reached level 20, which was some incentive to stay pure class and an EPIC reward for reaching level 20(And Rightly so, it aint easy getting to 20), now there is really no point in trying to get lvl 20 Cleric, you don't get anything.

Aura of Vitality only last for three minutes now (For Druids and War/Strength domain clerics) - Before it lasted 3 in game hours

Only 1 9th lvl spell added - Erupt, while it looks cool and flashy, is very impractical to use.  Be it in a dungeon run or PvP.  In PvP you will more then certainly get knocked down, get your concentration broken or just have your enemy run off the screen while you wait four rounds to cast it. In a dungeon run you are almost guaranteed to wipe out your own party with it, providing your concentration does not get broken.  I guess your party could run out of sight but would miss all the XP and with them doing that, they'd probably drag the mob out of range from the spell as well.  All in all, it is just a very impractical spell. I doubt this spell will be used very much, if at all by Clerics who are able to cast it. 

No real unique spells strictly for Clerics. - Almost all new spells for clerics can be cast by Wizards, Sorcerers and bards also.  Sure, there are some, like Mass Deathward, Mass Shield of Faith and a few other mass spells, but that's it really.  I think the nerfs far out weight any new spells clerics received. 

It feels like the Wizards and Sorcerers of the world beat the crap outa clerics, stripped em of all their powers/belongings (and then some) and left them crying naked in the middle of the street.  :cry:  I understand there are reasons for certain changes, but damn, Clerics got the beatdown hardcore in this hak update. 

peps

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 03:31:04 AM »
I can agree on the points about heal and magic vestments. I am not sure why both were nerfed, especially magic vestments.

I can agree that mass heal does need a heal cap, but definitely not 100. At that level to cast the spell, a cleric wouldn't even get fully healed let alone a fighter, paladin, or barbarian.

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2015, 03:54:08 AM »
Heal heals up to 150hp, Mass Heal heals up to 200hp. The only time I've even noticed these changes is when healing Sedrik Benthur.

I feel they went from outclassing everybody to being pretty equal and I think you're underrating the usefulness of the mass spells since they enable you to save a lot of slots when buffing a party. I think they received a lot of offensive spells that fill in gaps when playing a caster cleric rather than a melee cleric but they didn't receive much that improved melee clerics because they were already (and still are) really good.

Bad_Bud

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 06:32:21 AM »
Magic Vestments and GMW only up to +4 AC now - Before, you got +5 once you reached level 20, which was some incentive to stay pure class and an EPIC reward for reaching level 20(And Rightly so, it aint easy getting to 20), now there is really no point in trying to get lvl 20 Cleric, you don't get anything.

+4 is still an incentive to stay pure. You can't get it otherwise.

Aura of Vitality only last for three minutes now (For Druids and War/Strength domain clerics) - Before it lasted 3 in game hours

Aura of Vitality lasts for five minutes, not three. The only reason it ever lasted for three hours, which was always intended to be temporary, was because druids sucked so hard and didn't have access to Bear's Endurance, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, and Fox's Cunning.

The only real nerf to clerics was the loss of a spell slot, because that spell slot was gratuitous. Clerics have moved sideways, not backwards, and I think at the same time I think they're at least a little more interesting and more fun.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 06:37:24 AM by Bad_Bud »

Syl

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2015, 07:36:03 AM »
Last I checked Sticks to Spaghetti is a cleric only spell... Less druids get it I'm not sure, I just recall playing an DnD game where the cleric could cast the spell. and the heal spells as still quiet useful. the fact they actually have a cap now is interesting. it makes you still have to think and plan realizing that you cannot just insta max heal yourself. Means if you bite off more then your cleric can heal well.... kinda your fault.

I think most folks will get over the losing 1 little spell slot thanks to the mass spells

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APorg

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 03:28:56 PM »
Last I checked Sticks to Spaghetti is a cleric only spell... Less druids get it I'm not sure

Druids can cast Sticks to Snakes, yeah.
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APorg

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2015, 03:31:12 PM »
The only real nerf to clerics was the loss of a spell slot, because that spell slot was gratuitous. Clerics have moved sideways, not backwards, and I think at the same time I think they're at least a little more interesting and more fun.

Well, they're maybe a little under until they get their Domain spells back, but I understand that's a work in progress so that they will be able to cast Domain spells from new Domain Feats?
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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2015, 03:39:07 PM »
Eh, never minding the nerf of spell slot number, my biggest grip was with the nerf imposed on True Seeing, relating to spot bonuses it used to grant. I just don't see any coherent purpose or point behind it.
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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2015, 04:01:05 PM »
Eh, never minding the nerf of spell slot number, my biggest grip was with the nerf imposed on True Seeing, relating to spot bonuses it used to grant. I just don't see any coherent purpose or point behind it.
The spell should never have granted that bonus in the first place. Bioware implemented it wrong. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm#

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2015, 04:03:40 PM »
I had a cleric for NCE and I've got a level 19 cleric. I would say they are slightly less effectve in the lower levels now (due to the spell slot removal) - but actually vastly superior for party-based play at the higher levels. Once you gain access to the mass spells it's pretty amazing. I was able to ward a party of 8 in Sithicus waaaaaaay better than pre-hak with one more slot/level.

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2015, 02:16:50 AM »
You'll trippin', once a cleric always a cleric, no matter which way you weaken or empower them (fairly). They will continue to remain strong.
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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2015, 02:21:18 AM »
Hm...  I actually would say its major impact is actually at high levels.  at 16 you have TWO level 8 spell slots. Thats Mass Heal and...   Mass Heal.
 :lol:


Clerics did obtain new cleric only spells however,  Radiant Assault, Lion's Roar, and Withering Palm are all cleric only I think.

PnP Clerics are more powerful than PotM clerics now, there is no doubt about that, to me.  EO did say that he was working on tweaks to the domain system though, I reserve real impressions til then, it may not feel like as much of a slot loss if the domains actually make different clerics feel more unique in spell selections.  Lots of the new non-cleric spells fit thematically well with domains or are actually ON the domain spell lists and with a motivated look at the Domain system it could be a huge net benefit imho. Disintegrate in in game now, its a Destruction Domain spell. Anger of the Noonday Sun is perfect for Sun domain, Coma and Deep Slumber is great for the Sleep domain, Halt Undead would be a good choice for Repose or Undeath etc.      I think the spell selections allow a for clear divide between the Water Domain and potential Cold domain addition too. While Water could still have Ice Storm, Cone of Cold etc....  a potential Cold domain could have Freeze and Creeping Cold etc.

I do think the spell addition selections left the cleric spell list as an after thought, especially at the lower levels, but with the slot change, its doubtful anyone would find real use for lower level slots for anything other than keeping up with the party's needs as they go. You are better off either going a heavy armor and shield using melee cleric or as high of a Wisdom as you can go spell casting cleric, if you find yourself someone in between the two extremes you will feel the spell slot loss more than others. It never really pays to be well rounded in NWN, so nothing new.

Spiritual Weapon, Wave of Grief, Curse of Ill Fortune....  these are all spells that could have been added to the clerics level 2 spell selection for example. You think anyone would use them with 2 slots at level 3, 3 slots at level 4 etc?  :lol: No way that anyone would use those over Bull's Strength or Eagles/Owls/Bears etc.
Clerics lack....  viable debuffing spells at all levels with I think the noted exception of Prayer, lack a useful summon, have no damage shield before Aura against Alignment, and I struggle to name a touch spell worth the risk of a spell slot other than the Inflict spells. I would have liked these gaps addressed, if only to see clerics do something other than buff self and wear armor or just be the team medic,  but I remain in awe of the amazing additions that we did get.

What I do like about the new spells, even the ones shared with Wiz/Sorc list... is the fact that they offer some alignment neutral alternatives to the obviously good or evil spells that made up the spellbook before at higher levels.  Lucent Lance, Radiant Assault, Lion's Roar, Ice Flowers are very alignment friendly, as light and sound waves don't choose sides :)


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Exordium

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2015, 02:42:48 AM »
Level 5 cleric still buffs up the party with, for example, Bless, 3x Magic Weapon, 3x Bull's Strength, Magic Circle Against Alignment and Mass Aid given a wisdom of 16. Party of 2 would give room for self-buffs or healing, while a bigger party can have some more Magic Weapon prepared for it via Extend Spell if needed. In my opinion this continues to be a very good amount of buffing for lower levels by a single buffer. It's +1/2 AC (depending on gear) to all, +2-4 AB to all and +1-2 damage to all. Wizards/Sorcs seem to perhaps be taking a bigger role now than before for buffing, but they don't really match in combat ability, so that's OK by me.

When considering solo capability, from what I saw during the NCE, it does seem that clerics continue to be a staple there.

Overall I am very happy about the cleric changes and even with that 'developer' tag, the amount of the changes still took me a bit by a surprise! What's nicest in low and mid levels in my opinion is being forced to make more choices instead of just buffing up with almost everything you have. Things are much better now than with the vanilla "What you mean a fighter? Lets just get a 5th cleric!"-thing. ;)

I do think the spell addition selections left the cleric spell list as an after thought, especially at the lower levels, but with the slot change, its doubtful anyone would find real use for lower level slots for anything other than keeping up with the party's needs as they go. You are better off either going a heavy armor and shield using melee cleric or as high of a Wisdom as you can go spell casting cleric, if you find yourself someone in between the two extremes you will feel the spell slot loss more than others. It never really pays to be well rounded in NWN, so nothing new.

Yeah, it's a little unfortunate how much weight NWN puts on buffing up with all your spell slots due to multitude of reasons, but no can do without radical changes that wouldn't really work in PWs very well..
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 03:03:51 AM by Exordium »

Syl

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2015, 08:47:08 AM »
Eh, never minding the nerf of spell slot number, my biggest grip was with the nerf imposed on True Seeing, relating to spot bonuses it used to grant. I just don't see any coherent purpose or point behind it.
The spell should never have granted that bonus in the first place. Bioware implemented it wrong. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm#

WOOOO means no more having to worry about wizards spotting your stealth toon by just casting TS!!

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Dud_Goose

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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2015, 04:50:30 AM »
Although initially I felt a little betrayed by the hak update with regard to clerics, Kendera Malloy pointed out to me earlier that clerics have effectively transitioned from self-buffing tanks into party-buffing monsters that require more time to mature into that role-- I can understand why the changes were made now.  Perhaps we should worry less about losing (eventually) +5 weapons and a spell slot per level and focus instead on the greatly expanded options for party interaction as well as the strategy involved in organizing what we do have in terms of new spells.

Clerics are still a great class that are well-represented on the server.  I imagine it will stay that way.
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Re: Clerics nerfed big time
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2015, 08:05:41 AM »
Although initially I felt a little betrayed by the hak update with regard to clerics, Kendera Malloy pointed out to me earlier that clerics have effectively transitioned from self-buffing tanks into party-buffing monsters that require more time to mature into that role-- I can understand why the changes were made now.  Perhaps we should worry less about losing (eventually) +5 weapons and a spell slot per level and focus instead on the greatly expanded options for party interaction as well as the strategy involved in organizing what we do have in terms of new spells.

Clerics are still a great class that are well-represented on the server.  I imagine it will stay that way.
Much love. I initially felt betrayed, but it encourages party play more than ever. I am not happy about the gmw reduction, as rangers and paladins can still obtain premonition busters, but hey, I will work with it.  All in all, I actually support the changes. Still mad about the ts nerf, so there, blue. Nyah! Explore the new spells. Its not all bad!
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