New herbalism potions

[--GlamRock--]

I enlist among those who would prefer not seeing Heal and Greater Restoration craftable under any circumstances, and possibly having them only as rare loot.

[chuuch1]

Greater Restoration potions have been around for years, why the sudden dislike?

[McNastea]

Greater Restoration potions have been around for years, why the sudden dislike?

You're thinking of restoration I think, greater restoration fully heals you as well as providing the restoration-just like the spell greater restoration

[chuuch1]

Spoiler: show

Grave Mold, Puffballs, Lichgrass, Adders Tongue makes a greater restoration, that combo has been around forever

[Vasile]

Spoiler: show

Grave Mold, Puffballs, Lichgrass, Adders Tongue makes a greater restoration, that combo has been around forever

That recipe is just for a restoration potion. It doesn't heal HP like the greater version does.

[dark_majico]

I am against having these two potions craftable myself.
I generally think anything above a level 5 spell in potion form is a bit dicey.
As loot, very rare loot, its okay.  The greater stoneskin and tensers potions never destroyed anything, and there has always been a possibility to have heal potions too but the number was suppressed to a healthy amount.

I pretty much agree with everyone, in that removing them makes for a better gameplay experience.

I agree spells above level 5 in potion form is a very risky thing to introduce, and when it comes to heals it's even more riskier, I think they should just be removed completely. Take into consideration the amount of inventory slots available to characters and the numbers that you can stack potions to and the numbers of potions people can carry is crazy. I was in game and had someone tell me they had 50 potions of the morning lord temple on them and I was like... , I knew you could easily stack that amount and it wasn't a surprise but it hit home that any mid level character who could take out zombie warriors can just farm knuckles like it's a walk to the park and back. This situation is bad enough with a potion of Heal level 5 but imagine a Greater Restoration.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Thank you for your feedback everyone, there's a number of changes incoming later today, including:

- A potion of heal now takes 2 of each herb involved.

- Crafting of Greater Restoration has been disabled - we can perhaps enable it again at later, but it should depend on some herbs that are less accessible.

- The overall availability of herbs has been somewhat reduced. It was set a bit high originally to compensate for the limited selection of herbs at this early phase, but we'll spawn some of the lower level herbs instead that yields effects not presently in the "high level" selection presently.

[Merry Munchkin]

Spoiler: show

Grave Mold, Puffballs, Lichgrass, Adders Tongue makes a greater restoration, that combo has been around forever

The available restorative spells in NWN are:
Lesser restoration
Restoration
Greater restoration

You can craft the first 2 via herbalism, but not the third.

[--GlamRock--]

To be honest making the ingredients rarer or in hard place will not fix possible balance troubles. As someone said before, there are still some people (invidually, or in well organized groups) who will manage to get them and hoard them. And Greater Restoration and Heal are way too strong potions to have around in large numbers. I'm fond of the crafting system of POTM, but giving so much power-related possibility to the easiest (i.e. less expensive, with lower DCs compared to others, and with most materials, even for powerful items, really way too easy to obtain) craft around is going to unbalance many things in the short, mid and long term (dungeoning, dm events, pvp).

I hope the developing Team reconsiders the hypothesis to have them in game as craftable, a rare loot (such as hector's essence or tenser's transformation potions) would be better fitting.

[Tycat]

I disagree. Heal potions have been relatively easy to come by in the game for a while now.


I am sorry if this breaks someone's perspective, but it's true. I have ten of them on me right now. I think making the ingredients to craft them harder to find is good - it gives us some incentive and real, tangible reason to go someplace dangerous other than "it sounds like fun." I can now say "I am seeking a rare herb, it is a dangerous quest." This is really pleasing.


Heck, i don't think greater restoration should be nix'd either. Maybe just made impossible (DC 60? One herb spawns a season? Only one place to get it at the end of Sithicus?)


There is a difference between balance and perceived imbalance. That's my two cents.

[BahamutZ3RO]

I'm just thinking back to the way that Sabel was able to fight off six or seven people at a time by spamming Harm on herself. Now everyone's going to be doing it.

I've seen Heal potions used on other servers, Anphillia is the one that really sticks out in my mind. I remember a big PvP battle where the leaders of the two sides ended up just duking it out until they ran out. It really does become about who has access to more potions.

[herkles]

why not have penaltiies applied to using them like say -3 int loss? or perhaps slow movements(as you become drunk due to all that potions you are addicted to)

[--GlamRock--]

10 is a risible number. I made 25 greater restoration not even putting an effort in it. Perceived perspective is also on the side of those who are in the "groups of power". For those anything can be easy, included the impossible herb at the very end of Sithicus.

[Syl]

I do not really see a need to allow the creation of greater restoration potions... thats basically a heal and a Restoration all in one drink... Which is rather bothersome.. And heal potions were only easy to get once you hit a high level and farmed for elite hearts.. but still you needed 5 hearts for 1 potion. doubling the required material i can accept and making them more rare is a good choice of action.

THe removeale of Greater restoration potions is a good thing to do in my opinion. Again what would be the point of bringing a cleric with you anywhere accept for just buffs that you cannot get via potions or get longer lasting buffs. having both potions available to make is a bit redundent.. I personally was looking forward to more interesting potions possibilities like a stone skin potion.. was only labsourb up to 40 damage. or possible potion of the ghost [shrugs] Never thought Heal would come out lol

Out of curiosity what is needed to make a greater restoration potion?

[Syl]

Could the drinks be put on a timer? Like... a 30 second or so cool down?

I would say 1/rest but.. heh would cause to many to complain. I've only ever had 1.. maybe two heal potions and that was still when Terg ruins had elite vampires in it.. [shudders]

[Tycat]

10 is a risible number. I made 25 greater restoration not even putting an effort in it. Perceived perspective is also on the side of those who are in the "groups of power". For those anything can be easy, included the impossible herb at the very end of Sithicus.

as a powerful character, i am going to stop you right there. Sithicus is a nightmare. I have never been with a group that's gone even half way through it, and i've been with powerful groups before. I don't know anyone who has made it to the end. It takes hours, and hours, and hours to even make it just a little bit past the town. Putting an herb at the end of that dungeon that was vital to the creation of a restoration potion would be godly well earned.

Personally, I wonder if people are more concerned with the fact that they perceive powerful characters as being able to do whatever they want, stock up on hundreds of powerful potions, and go to the end of any dungeon out of spite or jealousy - considering it just isn't the case. I get googly eyed just thinking about it. But it would be a great incentive to risk all that danger and TPK's.

[Phantasia]

There is no matter of "perceived imbalance" when BahamutZ3R0 makes a point like that. It's basically turning all player characters into an MPC with no need for a cleric, that has access to Harm scrolls that cost nothing but an interval of time (gathering process). Admittedly, still too easy. No cooldown timer will fix it either. By the time they need to pop another they'd have used other means to heal themselves.

[Tycat]

Could the drinks be put on a timer? Like... a 30 second or so cool down?

I would say 1/rest but.. heh would cause to many to complain. I've only ever had 1.. maybe two heal potions and that was still when Terg ruins had elite vampires in it.. [shudders]

There's no way to script a cool down timer on potions.

[Tycat]

Here's what I think. I don't think Greater Restoration Potions are out of the question. I think they should just be difficult as heck.

- Last, vital component put at the end boss in Sithicus. One per reset
- DC60 to craft

Heal potions components should be available with the most rare ingredient found only in Perfidus, in out of the way areas that aren't on the typical path of destruction. So you know. We have to explore. Maybe behind a secret door? a little side quest? It's difficult to find Perfidus, even for big groups that can just power through the dungeon. So it would require a rogue to find the ingredients. Pretty good, right?

I still think there is a perceived imbalance when it comes to what a powerful character can achieve. No one simply walks into Sithicus to pick flowers and gets out alive, but these are fair solutions to outright nix'ing the concept all together. It isn't an imbalance until we test to see what it weighs in the end.

[--GlamRock--]

DC 60 means that you need to fail for a long time, since there is not, at the moment, anything in thre between. Oh, right, it's like gilding works. Maybe it could be done.

[herkles]

what about a penatlities to using the potions? say -5 int if you drink it or you become slowed for some time?

or accepting that due to the power that the high levels have that they are turning ravenloft slowly but surely into a magic loving world?

[Tycat]

DC 60 means that you need to fail for a long time, since there is not, at the moment, anything in thre between. Oh, right, it's like gilding works. Maybe it could be done.

DC 60 is just a rough suggestion. To be honest i don't have a master herbalist so i am not sure the highest dC, i just assumed it was 45. So if you're level 45, you should be able to attempt it on an auto 20, -5, bam. And yeah, Like gilding. Why not have potions that are as maddening to make as silver gilding?

what about a penatlities to using the potions? say -5 int if you drink it or you become slowed for some time?

or accepting that due to the power that the high levels have that they are turning ravenloft slowly but surely into a magic loving world?

and this right here is driving my point about perceived imbalances. You gotta stop acting like powerful characters are gods, because we die too.

[Syl]

I still wanna know what is needed to make greater restoration potions since it takes 4 herbs to make a restoration and you can only get some of em during certain seasons and in mountains.. With how many seem to be made so easily i feel like it only took two herbs for greater restoration

Edit: Here is a thought... Can the crafted Heal potion only heal X amount of health and not a full HP?

[herkles]

I still think they should just be removed from the server.

[DM Cataclysm]

There is no matter of "perceived imbalance" when BahamutZ3R0 makes a point like that. It's basically turning all player characters into an MPC with no need for a cleric, that has access to Harm scrolls that cost nothing but an interval of time (gathering process). Admittedly, still too easy. No cooldown timer will fix it either. By the time they need to pop another they'd have used other means to heal themselves.

I think this mentality is quite extreme.

1) All player characters can't make potions, much less a DC 40 potion. The % of high level herbalists is pretty low - case in point, when I've put potions out for sale they go in an instant because so few are investing the time in the craft right now. And if someone wants to get started just for Heal potions, they've got about 60 hours of practice coming up.

2) The amount of these potions you would need to replace the healing capability of a cleric would be massive. Now that the herbs are less common and you need twice the number, it would likely take you 15 hours to make enough for one encounter with something like trolls without a cleric. This is also ignoring the fact that stopping in the middle of combat to drink a potion (which triggers an attack of opportunity) is much less effective than a cleric healing you. Also - a cleric serves a lot more function than just healing. Much of their effectiveness is in wards that prevent you from being injured in the first place.

As others have pointed out - there are ways to get healing potions outside of herbalism and some people have a TON. I don't think adding in a few more will ruin POTM forever. I also think a lot of the fear is coming from people who haven't attempted to collect these reagents. Especially after Soren's change, the amount of time involved in making these will be huge and if someone wants to invest that much time for ten heal potions - more power to em'!