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Author Topic: Black Puddings  (Read 11137 times)

Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Black Puddings
« on: October 04, 2015, 07:27:11 AM »
Went down below Dvergeheim with a few other folks and had some misfortune with Black Puddings. Reading the logs, in one round of combat I had a helmet completely destroyed and my armour damaged, with seven corrosion ticks registered. Meanwhile Fade lost two rings and an amulet, saying they experienced something to the tune of 20 corrosion ticks in two rounds of combat.

Not sure if this is intentional but as far as balance goes, it doesn't make the tunnels beneath Dvergeheim very appealing to the general group without a lot of foresight and planning, moreso than an area of that caliber would demand. I haven't been down there for some time and I don't recall the original state of the corrosion system, but it certainly seems like it's making far too many checks in a limited amount of time. Additionally making those checks without ever landing a hit seems somewhat unfair, but that might be a debate more in line for balance of the system as opposed to a possibly malfunctioning system.

Just thought I'd throw this up in case the system is in fact not working as intended.

qwertyuioppp

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 07:30:34 AM »
Yeah, it's pretty nasty, I counted it up, and the one lone black pudding made 22 touch attacks in two rounds of combat, without landing a single actual melee hit. That was just on me, I don't know how many it threw out on the others in that time.

Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2015, 07:38:55 AM »
Given that the system in it's current form actively discourages people from going below Dvergeheim in search of adventure fun loot active plot development and character enrichment, if it is working as intended a revision might be necessary. Not sure in what form but given that in a single round it's able to make numerous touch attacks and successfully nuke your armour right off your back or your weapon from your hand, it seems pretty unlikely that people willingly go below when there's other options available that are comparatively much less risky and headache-inducing.

Not to say the system should be removed entirely. It's a good idea, but it's current form just isn't very encouraging.

Merry Munchkin

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2015, 09:14:44 AM »
Yeah, it's pretty nasty, I counted it up, and the one lone black pudding made 22 touch attacks in two rounds of combat, without landing a single actual melee hit. That was just on me, I don't know how many it threw out on the others in that time.

22?  I am not sure how that could possibly work in two rounds, absent a glitch in the script somewhere.  I have been in those mines and not had that much trouble, honestly -- but then again, my characters generally do not wear metal armor nor do I use metal weapons when confronting them (puddin' mashers rule!).   The only thing I can think of is that the pudding is making one touch attack on you, but it targets each metal item you carry separately to see if it is affected -- i.e. the fewer metal items you carry, the fewer touch attacks will be registered in your log.  Touch attacks are controlled entirely by script, as I understand it, and do not follow the normal NWN combat engine, so it would not matter whether it registers as a melee hit.

Thus, I am guessing (and again, this is just speculation on how the script works), if you were carrying metal (1) armor, (2) helm, (3) shield, (4) sword, and (5) boots, the pudding might attack you once, but register 5 touch attacks -- one for each of your metal items.

If this is the case, then confronting puddings is not merely an exercise in a muscle-bound sword swinger chopping them down -- it requires strategic thinking, and retreat if necessary.  My rogues with their slings and puddin' mashers (and some haste) never really had horrible problems with them (did get a helmet damaged once, but that was the only metal object I was wearing at the time).

Rings and amulets ought to be interesting -- not all metals react in acid.  Copper, silver, and gold, for example, are very unreactive regarding acids (although copper and silver do react with oxygen -- creating verdigris and tarnish, respectively).


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qwertyuioppp

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 09:23:30 AM »
It was 22. They all triggered so fast I had the floating text layer for the next several seconds. It was ludicrous, three people saw it happen. I'd post a screenshot if I didn't crash and lose the combat log. I lost two rings in literally the blink of an eye, I can't emphasise enough how literal I am being about these numbers.

I don't remember it ever being like this, I remember going down a few months ago and the touch attack was firing nowhere near this amount.

I don't think it has anything to do with metal items, because it ate up my hood and belt a few ticks as well, and they've chewed up suits of chitin in the past.

Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 09:28:18 AM »
Considering that a touch attack is relatively unblockable, it does suck quite a lot for anyone nearby. Assuming that the math is one touch attack for each metal item you're wearing in one round, Fade's example would mean 11 items were being assaulted in the attempt to corrode them. Which, really, seems overkill to me. I would think it'd have a hard time even touching one of your possessions if it's not a gelatinous cube engulfing you. We're talking about the smallest category size of Black Pudding by the way. The weakest of the lot ate it's way through a LOT of stuff.

I'm not against the idea of strategic thinking and being careful, but when you're walking through a series of tunnels just to get somewhere and you can lose most of your inventory in the doing of it when everything there is, frankly, beneath you, it feels kind of cheap. Like if fighting 1 HP rats could spontaneously steal your items and run off with them before you could stop them as an example.

Merry Munchkin

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 11:27:32 AM »


I don't think it has anything to do with metal items, because it ate up my hood and belt a few ticks as well, and they've chewed up suits of chitin in the past.

That's weird -- I've never experienced it affecting non-metal items before.  Was the hood by any chance metal?  (I know that I have sometimes crafted the appearance to look like a hood, but the item was still a metal helm). 


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DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 11:41:06 AM »
I think BPs are supposed to dissolve all kinds of stuff because they (unlike rust monsters) want what's inside the armor.

NWN may (normally) program them differently, but see here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Black_pudding.
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qwertyuioppp

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 11:50:58 AM »
I don't think it has anything to do with metal items, because it ate up my hood and belt a few ticks as well, and they've chewed up suits of chitin in the past.

That's weird -- I've never experienced it affecting non-metal items before.  Was the hood by any chance metal?  (I know that I have sometimes crafted the appearance to look like a hood, but the item was still a metal helm). 


Excellent question, yeah, I double-checked just now. The only material on the belt was Material: Leather, and the helmet only has Material: Cloth. Belt of the Desert Cat, and a Shadowed Hood, if that's relevant.

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 12:01:06 PM »
From what I remember, Puddings eat everything. Not just metal items.

Iconoclast

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 12:39:22 PM »


My current character pretty much strips down to his undies anytime he comes across Puddings.  Used to also be a rust monster that spawns  down there as well, on occasion. Just one of those few areas with creatures that can have big impacts on gear if someone isn't prepared.

Bad_Bud

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 12:50:43 PM »
This level of spam is clearly a bug. Touch attacks should happen once per round.

Feronius

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2015, 01:50:56 PM »
I am pretty sure the "Material: Cloth" or bone, leather, metal, etc. is just flavour text, nothing more.
I thought only Rust Monsters destroyed armour though, I thought Black Puddings only ate weapons?

Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2015, 01:53:12 PM »
I am pretty sure the "Material: Cloth" or bone, leather, metal, etc. is just flavour text, nothing more.
I thought only Rust Monsters destroyed armour though, I thought Black Puddings only ate weapons?
No, the material determines what can be destroyed. The script checks for the material type listed in that field.

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DM Brimstone

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2015, 03:17:36 PM »
Yeah, it's pretty nasty, I counted it up, and the one lone black pudding made 22 touch attacks in two rounds of combat, without landing a single actual melee hit. That was just on me, I don't know how many it threw out on the others in that time.

Rings and amulets ought to be interesting -- not all metals react in acid.  Copper, silver, and gold, for example, are very unreactive regarding acids (although copper and silver do react with oxygen -- creating verdigris and tarnish, respectively).


I hate to correct you, but copper is extremely susceptible to etching by corrosives depending on the acid used.  Nitric Acid (HNO3) is typically used to etch copper and does so at an extremely aggressive rate.  Copper is impervious to H2S04 (sulfuric acid)  and typically creates a copper sulfate film over the reactive surface.  Gold and silver are fairly acid resistant unless subjected to a mixture of acids such as an etch known as Aqua Regia (HCl and HNO3 mixture).  Interestingly enough, mercury can also be used to dissolve gold. 

So I suppose the question would be what is the acid secreted by the black pudding?  Granted, I doubt anyone wants to go that in-depth on video game. 

Feronius

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2015, 03:41:19 PM »
I am pretty sure the "Material: Cloth" or bone, leather, metal, etc. is just flavour text, nothing more.
I thought only Rust Monsters destroyed armour though, I thought Black Puddings only ate weapons?
No, the material determines what can be destroyed. The script checks for the material type listed in that field.

Oh, so it does serve a purpose then. So what does a Black Pudding eat? And what is on a Rust Monster's diet?

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2015, 05:29:31 PM »

So I suppose the question would be what is the acid secreted by the black pudding?  Granted, I doubt anyone wants to go that in-depth on video game. 

From the D20 SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding

Quote
The creature secretes a digestive acid that dissolves organic material and metal quickly, but does not affect stone.

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Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2015, 05:31:32 PM »
I am pretty sure the "Material: Cloth" or bone, leather, metal, etc. is just flavour text, nothing more.
I thought only Rust Monsters destroyed armour though, I thought Black Puddings only ate weapons?
No, the material determines what can be destroyed. The script checks for the material type listed in that field.

Oh, so it does serve a purpose then. So what does a Black Pudding eat? And what is on a Rust Monster's diet?
See my answer above for black puddings.

Rust monsters eat any metal that can be oxidized.

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DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2015, 06:07:24 PM »

So I suppose the question would be what is the acid secreted by the black pudding?  Granted, I doubt anyone wants to go that in-depth on video game.  

From the D20 SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding

Quote
The creature secretes a digestive acid that dissolves organic material and metal quickly, but does not affect stone.

Perhaps aqua regia, from that description. The pudding could have some biological means of mixing hydrocholic and nitric acid right when attacking.

The acid also has a nice history for the setting. From Wikipedia:

Aqua regia first appeared in the work of the European alchemist Pseudo-Geber, dating from the early 14th century.[10] The third of Basil Valentine’s keys shows a dragon in the foreground and a rooster eating a fox eating a rooster in the background. The rooster symbolizes gold (from its association with sunrise and the sun’s association with gold), and the fox represents aqua regia. The repetitive dissolving, heating, and redissolving (the rooster eating the fox eating the rooster) leads to the buildup of chlorine gas in the flask. The gold then volatilizes in the form of gold chloride, whose red crystals were known as dragon’s blood. The reaction was not reported in modern chemical literature until 1890.
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Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2015, 10:18:47 PM »
Aside from the issue of the pudding's dietary requirements, there's still the issue of the actual balancing on the corrosion checks. Given Bud's mention that the amount of touch attacks is far beyond what is intended, what is the actual ideal? Is it supposed to be a maximum of one touch attack in a round and one corrosion check on a single piece of equipment, if successful?

Also as far as alchemy in the setting goes, I quake at the idea of Gnomes discovering some of the more vigorous inventions we've stumbled on. For a laugh, look up Chlorine Trifluoride. It's terrifying in so many ways that it sounds like it's some straight made up nonsense.

DM Brimstone

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2015, 12:17:37 AM »

Perhaps aqua regia, from that description. The pudding could have some biological means of mixing hydrocholic and nitric acid right when attacking.

The acid also has a nice history for the setting. From Wikipedia:

Aqua regia first appeared in the work of the European alchemist Pseudo-Geber, dating from the early 14th century.[10] The third of Basil Valentine’s keys shows a dragon in the foreground and a rooster eating a fox eating a rooster in the background. The rooster symbolizes gold (from its association with sunrise and the sun’s association with gold), and the fox represents aqua regia. The repetitive dissolving, heating, and redissolving (the rooster eating the fox eating the rooster) leads to the buildup of chlorine gas in the flask. The gold then volatilizes in the form of gold chloride, whose red crystals were known as dragon’s blood. The reaction was not reported in modern chemical literature until 1890.

Hmmm.  That is interesting.  I was never aware of the history of the chemical.  Pretty cool!  Thanks for sharing it.

Syl

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2015, 08:46:07 AM »
Pudding is so acidic it can eat leather and cloth... XD it is how the brave Sokol lost his bracers that he won during a NCE night fight.
I just try and avoid them like the pleague... And that rust monster should still be down there.. Tis the only one i ever seen and if it's gone well..... * sad face*

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DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2015, 06:51:52 PM »

Hmmm.  That is interesting.  I was never aware of the history of the chemical.  Pretty cool!  Thanks for sharing it.

You're welcome. If you like esoteric chemical history, here's another pretty cool story about aqua regia:

http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/10/03/140815154/dissolve-my-nobel-prize-fast-a-true-story
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MatticusCaesar

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Re: Black Puddings
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2015, 08:39:43 PM »
Pudding is so acidic it can eat leather and cloth... XD it is how the brave Sokol lost his bracers that he won during a NCE night fight.
I just try and avoid them like the pleague... And that rust monster should still be down there.. Tis the only one i ever seen and if it's gone well..... * sad face*

I run into rust monsters and puddings down there fairly regularly, but this is why all the gear my characters take down below are made of materials I recovered from my Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.  All that nanotechnology, even if the proximity-based energy cells no longer work, is highly pudding and rust monster resistant.  :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 12:04:16 AM by MatticusCaesar »
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Invsible Rust monsters?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2015, 07:55:32 PM »
So, I went down under the mountain today, on Ashan. Started fighting a single Medium Black Ooze. Only to--within a matter of five seconds--have my entire set of gear being rusted away from invisible(according to my combat log) Rust monsters. I am not kidding. No attacks from them, just instant corrotion into dissolve in a matter of seconds, on my hammer, my helm and my full plate.

Is that normal?

I can't stress enough that this wasn't a lasting fight. I think I got 3 hits on the only visible creature(The black medium pudding)as shown on the screenshot, before I noticed all my gear practically being gone. 10-15 seconds at the very most.

My combat log got literally spammed, like there was a hiccup and bam, everything lost.

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