Author Topic: Shifters, skill* gear and forms  (Read 7258 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« on: September 30, 2015, 08:45:47 PM »
So I've noticed that, in addition to Shifter suffering AC problems, they also can't stack stat skill gear. Is that something that can/will be fixed by the hak, or is it just what it is? :|

Edit: Fixed. Idk why I said stat.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 01:28:02 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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TheGrinningHound

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Re: Shifters, stat gear and forms
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2015, 01:24:28 PM »
What kind of stat gear are you speakin' about, exactly?

I mean, I obviously can't help with any hak questions, but I've got a firm understanding of shifter gear merging. It's the hardest part of playing a shifter, imo-- but can be really rewarding once you get it down.

If this isn't the kind of help you're after, or you want some advice for how to make it work, feel free to hit me up.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Shifters, stat gear and forms
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 01:27:34 PM »
What kind of stat gear are you speakin' about, exactly?

I mean, I obviously can't help with any hak questions, but I've got a firm understanding of shifter gear merging. It's the hardest part of playing a shifter, imo-- but can be really rewarding once you get it down.

If this isn't the kind of help you're after, or you want some advice for how to make it work, feel free to hit me up.

I just want to jack my stealth up. Unfortunately, there's not much sense in equipping anything other than an Ebon Tiger Belt if I ever get one, because that'll give me everything I need and override all other hide/ms buffs. Also, I just realized that I said 'stat' gear instead of 'skill' gear. Woops.
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TheGrinningHound

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 01:32:18 PM »
Hrm, odd. Normally skill equipment stacks. There are some specific forms however that merge strange combinations of equipment. I'm gonna take a peek at my notes.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 01:39:45 PM »
Hrm, odd. Normally skill equipment stacks. There are some specific forms however that merge strange combinations of equipment. I'm gonna take a peek at my notes.

I only noticed after spending a lot of money on stealth gear that it actually isn't applying anything beyond the single highest bonus. The wiki confirms it.

Quote
Because (most of) the properties taken from items are placed on a single item (a skin item), many bonuses end up not stacking. In particular, bonuses to ability scores, skills, and saving throws will not stack with like bonuses.
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IllusoryWitch

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 02:32:21 PM »
I was able to find this information, I'm taking information specific to other servers out of it, under the assumption that POTM did not make any changes to Shifter away from base NWN.

Item merge

    Weapon is the primary weapon slot.
    Items are both ring slots, amulet slot, cloak slot, boots slot, and belt slot.
    Armor is the armor slot, shield slot (shield only, offhand weapons do not merge), and helmet slot.
    The Gloves or Bracers Slot never merge in base NWN
        Has a weapon? Merges all.
        Unarmed, stands on two legs? Merges all (items and armor in base NWN)
        Unarmed, four or more legs? Merges armor and primary weapon only (armor only in base NWN).
        Exceptions to the rule are Death Slaad Lord, Stone Golem and Demonflesh Golem.


Did a bit more digging, and Amia devised a way to get everything to merge regardless, so it can be done. I'll take a look at some of the scripts/2das that are connected with the class when I get home and see if I can find out how to fix this.


EO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 02:38:33 PM »
You'll find the list of what stacks with which form towards the bottom of that page:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shifter

We haven't made any changes to those and are not planning to make any in the short term.

IllusoryWitch

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 03:00:55 PM »
I guess for RP's sake. If you're shifting into another class, is it just you shifting, or your gear as well? Because, like...How is a manticore going to wear boots?


EO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2015, 03:01:42 PM »
I guess for RP's sake. If you're shifting into another class, is it just you shifting, or your gear as well? Because, like...How is a manticore going to wear boots?

I think that's the reasoning behind why some races retain item bonuses and others don't. A drow can wear equipment, a basilisk less so.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2015, 03:05:57 PM »
You'll find the list of what stacks with which form towards the bottom of that page:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shifter

We haven't made any changes to those and are not planning to make any in the short term.

That's not what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about a broken function of item merging altogether. It doesn't work regardless of whether you're a wyrmling or a drow. If you've got two items that both have a skill bonus on it, only the highest will apply.
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EO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2015, 03:11:39 PM »
Oh yeah, well your explanation covered that. It's definitely possible to detect what's on each item and have it stack but it'd likely be resource-intensive.

IllusoryWitch

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2015, 03:17:18 PM »
I've noticed a pattern of using the term 'resource intensive' to denote either a lack of time for , or understanding of the issue that is requesting addressing, if any answer at all is forthcoming. I find this disheartening. Stock NWN allows for stacking of items (as long as those items are allowed) 9 times out of ten. If that is the case, it is more likely than not another script (Possibly one of that rl_inc scripts dealing with items) or an Onequip script that may be causing the issue.

Again, I will take a look into all of the above when I get home and attempt to resolve.


EO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2015, 03:39:16 PM »
I've noticed a pattern of using the term 'resource intensive' to denote either a lack of time for , or understanding of the issue that is requesting addressing, if any answer at all is forthcoming. I find this disheartening. Stock NWN allows for stacking of items (as long as those items are allowed) 9 times out of ten. If that is the case, it is more likely than not another script (Possibly one of that rl_inc scripts dealing with items) or an Onequip script that may be causing the issue.

Again, I will take a look into all of the above when I get home and attempt to resolve.

When we refer to resource intensive, it's a matter of server performance not time. Before implementing any system, we make sure that it's as efficient as possible. If adding a flashy new gimmick means increasing server load and making things laggier, we won't add it. That's how we manage to run a 1095 areas module (soon to rise to around 1150 in my next update) on a single server and not have to split, like most big servers. Trust me, IW, we know what we're doing. We'd rather be conservative in terms of development rather than sloppy and expensive.

As for the current scenario, it's due to the way NwN handles merging items. The NwN function (which I don't have at hand) likely just copies and pastes the item properties on a "skin" item; the problem with that approach is that if you copy a +4 Hide and a +6 Hide bonus onto the same item, only the +6 will apply. It's fairly easy to script something that will detect each property individually, look for their bonus number and add up said bonuses to make a single +10 Hide on the Hide but running a script that goes through every equipped item for each property may be resource intensive. I'm not saying it necessarily is but it may be. And considering how few shifters we have, it's hardly a top development priority to investigate and script.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 03:50:34 PM by EO »

Budly

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2015, 03:53:03 PM »
I've noticed a pattern of using the term 'resource intensive' to denote either a lack of time for , or understanding of the issue that is requesting addressing, if any answer at all is forthcoming. I find this disheartening. Stock NWN allows for stacking of items (as long as those items are allowed) 9 times out of ten. If that is the case, it is more likely than not another script (Possibly one of that rl_inc scripts dealing with items) or an Onequip script that may be causing the issue.

Again, I will take a look into all of the above when I get home and attempt to resolve.

When we refer to resource intensive, it's a matter of server performance not time. Before implementing any system, we make sure that it's as efficient as possible. If adding a flashy new gimmick means increasing server load and making things laggier, we won't add it. That's how we manage to run a 1095 areas module (soon to rise to around 1150 in my next update) on a single server and not have to split, like most big servers. Trust me, IW, we know what we're doing. We'd rather be conservative in terms of development rather than sloppy and expensive.

As for the current scenario, it's due to the way NwN handles merging items. The NwN function (which I don't have at hand) likely just copies and pastes the item properties on a "skin" item; the problem with that approach is that if you copy a +4 Hide and a +6 Hide bonus onto the same item, only the +6 will apply. It's fairly easy to script something that will detect each property individually, look for their bonus number and add up said bonuses to make a single +10 Hide on the Hide but running a script that goes through every equipped item for each property may be resource intensive. I'm not saying it necessarily is but it may be. And considering how few shifters we have, it's hardly a top development priority to investigate and script.

Technically? Could you like remove a Domain and create more space for more RP mechanics and such?

EO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2015, 05:04:49 PM »
First of all Budly we won't remove domains. Secondly, no, it wouldn't help much. The two biggest domains in terms of area sizes and the ones you'd need to remove to actually make a difference are Barovia and Dementlieu. Other domains are much smaller and all smaller domains combined don't have as many areas as either one of those two domains.

We long ago passed the NwN threshold for how big a module could realistically be; the last talks of splitting the module came about when we first introduced Dementlieu in 2008 and before that shortly after public beta in 2006 but in both cases, Soren was able to optimize the scripting and systems to make it function.

Feronius

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2015, 05:09:02 PM »
I did a little bit of research on it for my own character. As far as I know, that's just how the Shifter class works.

The short version? It is basically pointless for Shifters to have multiple items that offer the same type of bonus.
Or to have more than one item with an AC bonus, because all AC bonuses convert into AC Deflection bonuses.

I think the specific AC bonuses such as "+2 AC (Deflection) bonus against Slashing Damage" still stack with the other AC bonuses, but I am not sure.


By the way, you can ignore the exceptions to the item merge rules of thumb, those forms are not accessible on PotM because of the lvl 20 level cap.

Budly

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2015, 05:33:49 PM »
First of all Budly we won't remove domains. Secondly, no, it wouldn't help much. The two biggest domains in terms of area sizes and the ones you'd need to remove to actually make a difference are Barovia and Dementlieu. Other domains are much smaller and all smaller domains combined don't have as many areas as either one of those two domains.

We long ago passed the NwN threshold for how big a module could realistically be; the last talks of splitting the module came about when we first introduced Dementlieu in 2008 and before that shortly after public beta in 2006 but in both cases, Soren was able to optimize the scripting and systems to make it function.

Oi mate! It was a question. If you could, not that you should ;)

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2015, 05:36:11 PM »
Could we remove Budly and create more space for more RP mechanics and such? :lol:
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IllusoryWitch

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2015, 06:15:37 PM »
Could we remove Budly and create more space for more RP mechanics and such? :lol:

Unnecessary rudeness aside, it did always confuse me as to why so many incomplete parts of the core were made available .  To me it diminishes the worth of any characters accomplishments or notoriety  in any one place . With that said , as far as the shifter class goes I guess the 'resources' involved would not make the fix worth it for the few people that play the class , as EO has stated. I trust his judgement for what is best for potm


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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2015, 06:22:22 PM »
Remember guys - be excellent to each other.


...or else.

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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2015, 06:32:48 PM »
I'm teasing, I play DotA with the guy. He knows I don't mean it. <3
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2015, 03:33:28 AM »
I fixed this issue, so skill bonuses from multiple items will stack. I also added support for merging glove properties, since that was missing.

Gloves will always copy their non-offensive properties. If a weapon is not equipped when shifting, offensive properties from gloves will be copied to the shifter weapon.

You won't see any of this until the hak update comes. Not because this requires a hak update to fix, but because the wildshape feats have some modified features in the hak update version, and that is the version I modified and added the skill bonus fix to.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2015, 03:35:29 AM »
I fixed this issue, so skill bonuses from multiple items will stack. I also added support for merging glove properties, since that was missing.

Gloves will always copy their non-offensive properties. If a weapon is not equipped when shifting, offensive properties from gloves will be copied to the shifter weapon.

You won't see any of this until the hak update comes. Not because this requires a hak update to fix, but because the wildshape feats have some modified features in the hak update version, and that is the version I modified and added the skill bonus fix to.

\o/ U da bes <3

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IllusoryWitch

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2015, 09:11:00 AM »
I fixed this issue, so skill bonuses from multiple items will stack. I also added support for merging glove properties, since that was missing.

Gloves will always copy their non-offensive properties. If a weapon is not equipped when shifting, offensive properties from gloves will be copied to the shifter weapon.

You won't see any of this until the hak update comes. Not because this requires a hak update to fix, but because the wildshape feats have some modified features in the hak update version, and that is the version I modified and added the skill bonus fix to.

Awesome; very thorough . How Resource Intensive was it?


Chaoshawk

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Re: Shifters, skill* gear and forms
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2015, 01:25:54 PM »
I fixed this issue, so skill bonuses from multiple items will stack. I also added support for merging glove properties, since that was missing.

Gloves will always copy their non-offensive properties. If a weapon is not equipped when shifting, offensive properties from gloves will be copied to the shifter weapon.

You won't see any of this until the hak update comes. Not because this requires a hak update to fix, but because the wildshape feats have some modified features in the hak update version, and that is the version I modified and added the skill bonus fix to.

Awesome! Are other poly morphed effects for other classes or lycanthropes (PC ones specifically) capable of doing similar changes or planned to have similar boons? It would definitely make taking a form as a druid or a MPC able to actually be effective in their shifted forms. I understand based on the nwn wiki that for druids armor, shield, and helmets go into it but not other equipment, but lycanthropes get nothing from their equipment at all so they might as well use their humanoid forms. I think it would definitely make playing AMPCs/MPC lycanthropes more appealing and capable of actually fighting other players around their level.
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