Author Topic: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM  (Read 36573 times)

Nightmare

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2015, 08:51:55 PM »
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Lich would be a fantastic MPC addition.

This has been discussed to death by us, trust me. The Lich template, while awesome, is simply too powerful to be implemented without individual power leaning toward the absurd.

Conversely, limiting the power of the template would be a great disservice to the Lich. They're better left to NPC status. That said, if you're looking for Liches.. there's plenty in Sithicus.

I have and never will understand this mentality. Arcane casters already get shadow shield which gives the +5 Natural AC, and the base AC bonus could easily be dropped to +3 making it base level barkskin, Mind Blank and other spells that make them immune to mind-affecting as well.  Our ghouls wights and vampires have touch attacks that do special abilities, ALL of our MPC's get relatively huge stat gains compared to the Liches measly +2 to all mental, and the Elemental Immunities can easily be dropped to regular DR without being a massive nerf. Physical DR isn't that threatening either, at what I would assume would be 15/+1(2?). Our Mummies/Vampires already get Phylacteries/Coffins that allow them to respawn. The only disservice being done to the Lich is the belief that, somehow, it's bonuses and stats are what makes it such a frightening creature, not the fact that it is quite nearly immortal, and no matter how powerful the hero is, the Lich can plan and wait. The Lich is the fiend that chooses its battles. You don't hunt it, it hunts YOU.
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2015, 08:57:24 PM »
And even then, if the stats are an issue, that's where a lesser lich could come in. We've already got a lot of homebrew stuff on the server, I don't think making a monster type for the sake of player balance would be upsetting.

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2015, 09:11:23 PM »
Quote
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Lich would be a fantastic MPC addition.

This has been discussed to death by us, trust me. The Lich template, while awesome, is simply too powerful to be implemented without individual power leaning toward the absurd.

Conversely, limiting the power of the template would be a great disservice to the Lich. They're better left to NPC status. That said, if you're looking for Liches.. there's plenty in Sithicus.

I have and never will understand this mentality. Arcane casters already get shadow shield which gives the +5 Natural AC, and the base AC bonus could easily be dropped to +3 making it base level barkskin, Mind Blank and other spells that make them immune to mind-affecting as well.  Our ghouls wights and vampires have touch attacks that do special abilities, ALL of our MPC's get relatively huge stat gains compared to the Liches measly +2 to all mental, and the Elemental Immunities can easily be dropped to regular DR without being a massive nerf. Physical DR isn't that threatening either, at what I would assume would be 15/+1(2?). Our Mummies/Vampires already get Phylacteries/Coffins that allow them to respawn. The only disservice being done to the Lich is the belief that, somehow, it's bonuses and stats are what makes it such a frightening creature, not the fact that it is quite nearly immortal, and no matter how powerful the hero is, the Lich can plan and wait. The Lich is the fiend that chooses its battles. You don't hunt it, it hunts YOU.

Yeah, Lich seems like such an unneeded and OP template. The biggest thing that hurts arcanist undead at the moment is the unsupported d12 Undead Hit Die.

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2015, 06:29:17 AM »
Lich would be a fantastic MPC addition.

This has been discussed to death by us, trust me. The Lich template, while awesome, is simply too powerful to be implemented without individual power leaning toward the absurd.

Conversely, limiting the power of the template would be a great disservice to the Lich. They're better left to NPC status. That said, if you're looking for Liches.. there's plenty in Sithicus.

Why not do some sort of lesser lich for the sake of gameplay? A caster who isn't quite powerful enough to give themself the full capacity of powers, but, managed to store their soul in a phylactery? As a monster they could be about trying to find knowledge and pushing their transformation. It would fit in with the setting because the failure in becoming a full lich would become drive to keep being evil, a person's own desires becomes their damnation.

Would this not simply be an MPC version of a Pale Master? The Pale Master class is severely underpowered, so this would not necessarily be a bad thing, just saying.

Anyhow, I think we should take discussions about potential new MPC roles to a different thread so this one can focus on the poll options. It's a fun topic though.

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2015, 09:40:13 AM »
Quote
Quote
Lich would be a fantastic MPC addition.

This has been discussed to death by us, trust me. The Lich template, while awesome, is simply too powerful to be implemented without individual power leaning toward the absurd.

Conversely, limiting the power of the template would be a great disservice to the Lich. They're better left to NPC status. That said, if you're looking for Liches.. there's plenty in Sithicus.

I have and never will understand this mentality. Arcane casters already get shadow shield which gives the +5 Natural AC, and the base AC bonus could easily be dropped to +3 making it base level barkskin, Mind Blank and other spells that make them immune to mind-affecting as well.  Our ghouls wights and vampires have touch attacks that do special abilities, ALL of our MPC's get relatively huge stat gains compared to the Liches measly +2 to all mental, and the Elemental Immunities can easily be dropped to regular DR without being a massive nerf. Physical DR isn't that threatening either, at what I would assume would be 15/+1(2?). Our Mummies/Vampires already get Phylacteries/Coffins that allow them to respawn. The only disservice being done to the Lich is the belief that, somehow, it's bonuses and stats are what makes it such a frightening creature, not the fact that it is quite nearly immortal, and no matter how powerful the hero is, the Lich can plan and wait. The Lich is the fiend that chooses its battles. You don't hunt it, it hunts YOU.

I take it you're not familiar with Ravenloft's variation of the Lich. They're gifted with monstrously powerful abilities such as the capacity to automatically dominate lesser undead within literal miles of their presence. The others just get more ridiculous. Elketh is barely qualifies as such a thing and he rules over a demireality propagated by his own madness (and a healthy dose of dark powers). There's no way to do Liches justice for players. They're forces of nature and I've personally little desire to see them reduced from that status.
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2015, 10:09:46 AM »
So you're the reason why we can't have fun things!

How about this then: BONE MAGE. It's a caster who makes a phylactery but doesn't succeed in becoming a full lich, thereby avoiding the L word entirely.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 10:11:47 AM by DM Ophis »

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2015, 10:12:11 AM »
I take it you're not familiar with Ravenloft's variation of the Lich. They're gifted with monstrously powerful abilities such as the capacity to automatically dominate lesser undead within literal miles of their presence. The others just get more ridiculous. Elketh is barely qualifies as such a thing and he rules over a demireality propagated by his own madness (and a healthy dose of dark powers). There's no way to do Liches justice for players. They're forces of nature and I've personally little desire to see them reduced from that status.

You're absolutely right, Prophet.

But think for a moment about what Ophis said. Becoming a Lich is much more about the journey than about the outcome. The MPC template could be something like "Lich Aspirant" or something similar, a guy that has managed to place his soul in a phylactery, but still has a long way into becoming a full lich (I believe the Vampire Spawn template was used for years because the Dev team considered full Vampire was too strong, so it's sort of a similar case). And if the PC ever manages to reach that level, just closure him as a PC and let the DM team have fun with him as an NPC. I'm pretty sure the Lich's player would be honored to be retired like that.

EDIT: Bone Mage sounds even better. Let that guy try to become a lich. Retire him as an NPC if he manages to do it.
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2015, 10:14:00 AM »
It sounds like he's argued up and down that liches should be uber, so we should now argue for a new monster entirely that is similar in function to what we want out of it. The L word is the problem here, so let's not use the L word. BONE MAGE.

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2015, 10:18:47 AM »
Is it too late to add the option of being able to delete your own characters?
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2015, 10:26:30 AM »
Is it too late to add the option of being able to delete your own characters?

For the love of Ezra, I need this.
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2015, 10:27:08 AM »
So you're the reason why we can't have fun things!

How about this then: BONE MAGE. It's a caster who makes a phylactery but doesn't succeed in becoming a full lich, thereby avoiding the L word entirely.

When I first joined the Dev Team, I argued relentlessly to get the Lich in. It's not going to happen. Ever. I'm not opposed to a powerful arcane spellcaster-oriented template but it'd have to make sense in context to Ravenloft.

The notion of a Half-Lich isn't a bad idea but that sort of thing exists (Vassallich) and they're kind of stupid. I'll bring up this point in discussion sometime in the future.
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2015, 10:40:50 AM »
Quote
The notion of a Half-Lich isn't a bad idea but that sort of thing exists (Vassallich) and they're kind of stupid. I'll bring up this point in discussion sometime in the future.

I had started development on a vassalich template a long time ago but the problem is that for a vassalich to exist, a lich needs to hold its phylactery and when they die, they respawn there. We have about 1-2 liches in the module (one is an Alhoon, the other a failed lich); we might have one or two more now with Sithicus but it remains very NPC dependent. That was the main stumbling block to make a vassalich.

As for other templates, I've considered them all at one point or another. For hags, the problem is that most hag effects and what makes a hag terrifying can't be done by PCs (they can't have the hag lair or the effect hags have on nature in the surrounding area nor can they show the effects of aging of a hag). A darkling would be interesting but I'm not sure what they would really bring in terms of horror. Flesh golems may be possible now that we have Leto and can actually change a PC's race so that could be brought back to the table.

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2015, 01:12:57 PM »
OMG a flesh golem?! Can we please have this as a MPC type? Pretty please? I will make you home made chocolates and all the desserts you can handle!
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2015, 01:23:47 PM »
Would really love more MPC that can blend in :(

Almost all the MPCs visually make people hostile and there isnt always very much build up since you see a werewolf/ghoul/etc and your "Its evil! KILL IT WITH FIRE!". Vampires at least appear very normalish looking and can get in close with people before they ever start to know somethings up :o! Only suggested hag because there able to hide behind guises and such. Are there any other options that fit into the ECL 2 or what ever the limit is for monsterous chars, that appear human and have powers that can be easily replicated?

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2015, 01:51:07 PM »
Would really love more MPC that can blend in :(

Almost all the MPCs visually make people hostile and there isnt always very much build up since you see a werewolf/ghoul/etc and your "Its evil! KILL IT WITH FIRE!". Vampires at least appear very normalish looking and can get in close with people before they ever start to know somethings up :o! Only suggested hag because there able to hide behind guises and such. Are there any other options that fit into the ECL 2 or what ever the limit is for monsterous chars, that appear human and have powers that can be easily replicated?

Well, there are but they'd need to fit the conditions of the MPC (ie: provide horror to the playerbase), which reduces the number of likely candidates. Dread Flesh Golems could work (a la Frankenstein's monster).

OMG a flesh golem?! Can we please have this as a MPC type? Pretty please? I will make you home made chocolates and all the desserts you can handle!

No promises; I've looked into it and talked a bit with Soren and it seems feasible but I need to give the template a closer look before confirming it.

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2015, 02:26:33 PM »
Is it too late to add the option of being able to delete your own characters?

For the love of Ezra, I need this.

I agree with this... i have so many mad that it gets crazy of the ones i no longer do or ones that were just for numbers.

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2015, 02:53:35 PM »
No promises; I've looked into it and talked a bit with Soren and it seems feasible but I need to give the template a closer look before confirming it.

Ooh that would be so fun to play! I hope you can make it happen!
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2015, 05:48:13 PM »
Quote
Quote
Lich would be a fantastic MPC addition.

This has been discussed to death by us, trust me. The Lich template, while awesome, is simply too powerful to be implemented without individual power leaning toward the absurd.

Conversely, limiting the power of the template would be a great disservice to the Lich. They're better left to NPC status. That said, if you're looking for Liches.. there's plenty in Sithicus.

I have and never will understand this mentality. Arcane casters already get shadow shield which gives the +5 Natural AC, and the base AC bonus could easily be dropped to +3 making it base level barkskin, Mind Blank and other spells that make them immune to mind-affecting as well.  Our ghouls wights and vampires have touch attacks that do special abilities, ALL of our MPC's get relatively huge stat gains compared to the Liches measly +2 to all mental, and the Elemental Immunities can easily be dropped to regular DR without being a massive nerf. Physical DR isn't that threatening either, at what I would assume would be 15/+1(2?). Our Mummies/Vampires already get Phylacteries/Coffins that allow them to respawn. The only disservice being done to the Lich is the belief that, somehow, it's bonuses and stats are what makes it such a frightening creature, not the fact that it is quite nearly immortal, and no matter how powerful the hero is, the Lich can plan and wait. The Lich is the fiend that chooses its battles. You don't hunt it, it hunts YOU.

I take it you're not familiar with Ravenloft's variation of the Lich. They're gifted with monstrously powerful abilities such as the capacity to automatically dominate lesser undead within literal miles of their presence. The others just get more ridiculous. Elketh is barely qualifies as such a thing and he rules over a demireality propagated by his own madness (and a healthy dose of dark powers). There's no way to do Liches justice for players. They're forces of nature and I've personally little desire to see them reduced from that status.

I am aware of the Liches salient abilities and most of them require several CENTURIES of existence to fully manifest. You could easily say, since our Liches would be newly made, and having a time limit of 6 months anyway, would not have time to manifest or understand all of their newfound abilities. Mummies and Vampires also gain these salient abilities, and while we only have Vampire Spawns, we do have Mummies. I repeat, the disservice being done here is adhering too vehemently to the perceived level of power a Lich gains because of its ABILITIES. There is a very powerful argument for the roleplay value of the Lich simply from its existence as a nearly immortal caster.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 08:40:10 PM by Nightmare »
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2015, 10:15:52 PM »
Quote
Quote
Lich would be a fantastic MPC addition.

This has been discussed to death by us, trust me. The Lich template, while awesome, is simply too powerful to be implemented without individual power leaning toward the absurd.

Conversely, limiting the power of the template would be a great disservice to the Lich. They're better left to NPC status. That said, if you're looking for Liches.. there's plenty in Sithicus.

I have and never will understand this mentality. Arcane casters already get shadow shield which gives the +5 Natural AC, and the base AC bonus could easily be dropped to +3 making it base level barkskin, Mind Blank and other spells that make them immune to mind-affecting as well.  Our ghouls wights and vampires have touch attacks that do special abilities, ALL of our MPC's get relatively huge stat gains compared to the Liches measly +2 to all mental, and the Elemental Immunities can easily be dropped to regular DR without being a massive nerf. Physical DR isn't that threatening either, at what I would assume would be 15/+1(2?). Our Mummies/Vampires already get Phylacteries/Coffins that allow them to respawn. The only disservice being done to the Lich is the belief that, somehow, it's bonuses and stats are what makes it such a frightening creature, not the fact that it is quite nearly immortal, and no matter how powerful the hero is, the Lich can plan and wait. The Lich is the fiend that chooses its battles. You don't hunt it, it hunts YOU.

I take it you're not familiar with Ravenloft's variation of the Lich. They're gifted with monstrously powerful abilities such as the capacity to automatically dominate lesser undead within literal miles of their presence. The others just get more ridiculous. Elketh is barely qualifies as such a thing and he rules over a demireality propagated by his own madness (and a healthy dose of dark powers). There's no way to do Liches justice for players. They're forces of nature and I've personally little desire to see them reduced from that status.

I am aware of the Liches salient abilities and most of them require several CENTURIES of existence to fully manifest. You could easily say, since our Liches would be newly made, and having a time limit of 6 months anyway, would not have time to manifest or understand all of their newfound abilities. Mummies and Vampires also gain these salient abilities, and while we only have Vampire Spawns, we do have Mummies. I repeat, the disservice being done here is adhering too vehemently to the perceived level of power a Lich gains because of its ABILITIES. There is a very powerful argument for the roleplay value of the Lich simply from its existence as a nearly immortal caster.

actually we have full vampires, and have had them for a good long time now.


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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2015, 10:48:39 PM »
I would like to give a little more feedback on the 3 options I chose:

Adding more dungeons to explore.

I'm a big proponent of Dungeon themes being in 'mini-areas' of other domains or even some outside areas laid out like a maze (like wall ruins, etc)... or some dungeons moved to other 'domains'
An example: the sewers of Port could be the 'Richemulot' dungeon and go as deep as the crypt in the outskirts ML church. The 'Richemulot' surface could be one area of abandoned mansions and streets and canals that are deadly at night. And spawn an NPC ship captain to take PCs in and out of the domain during the day only

Another idea (for Darkon)
would be the abandoned Mansion interior where you place barricades (boarded window placeable) to keep out undead all night (Night of the Living Dead)
or for another idea look at the Battle of Hardhome in S05E08 of this week's Game of Thrones

etc. etc.
There are a few existing dungeons that could be moved to highlight the other domains.

There are a lot of 'overland travel' boards but if they are not somehow dynamic Devs might want to ask - what do these boards contribute to the overall setting or player experience? Use of these boards could work in conjunction with missions.
The items you get for caravans can hold scripts to dynamically generate random encounters (Brigands and such)

Braovia, Hazlan and Dementlieu could all have dynamic 'missions' added to them.


Another possibility is dynamically Spawned robbers could also drop 'notes' or items that open up other missions that are only available if you have the item (and said item would be destroyed on reset)

----------------------------------------------------------

Adding more systems/features to facilitate individual player-driven roleplay.

A majority of PCs never get any DM attention so this kind of stuff only helps enrich -everyone's- experience

- the two things on my wishlist would be:
1) Renaming items. (some servers also let you rename the description as well). Charging gold like its done to already change appearance is fair.
2) Placeable item models. More items having a placeable rather then a 'bag' is always enriching. Like Notes being a paper for instance. The priority being whatever is most common or would enrich the area being dressed. A way to drop or 'wipe away' bones, splotches, or wall Graffiti would be great too (anything horror related really)


--------------------------------------------------------

Adding more MPC variations

Ghost would be fairly easy to implement as an MPC I think?
Some ideas:
- Choosing to come back as a MPC Ghost gives you a chance to close out your character or come back for vengeance
- Choosing to come back as a MPC Ghost would be permanent. No being resurrected
- MPC Ghosts would be susceptible to Cleric's Turn Undead (and possibly destroy you)
- Sunrise would cause the MPC Ghost to automatically despawn
- 0 hitpoints would cause a MPC Ghost to automatically despawn. Respawning is only option*
- Negative Energy / level Drain attack would heal an MPC Ghosts hitpoints
- Positive Energy would cause an MPC to loose Hitpoints
- Magnitude (and abilities) could be based on your level when you died:
  •     Lvs 1-4: first magnitude
         Lvs 5-8: second magnitude
         Lvs 9-12: third magnitude
         Lvs 13-16: forth magnitude
         Lvs 17-20: fifth magnitude
  *MPC Ghost can 'Return' with Respawn penalty (thus decreasing its magnitude)



so there are some of my thoughts. Just to put them out there. There is no need to respond to my post i already know the answer

EDIT (6/7): Sorry had a type-o. Had every magnitude for MPC Ghost listed as 1st. Changed to 1st -5th.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 11:48:47 PM by monsinyana »
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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2015, 11:01:58 PM »
Quote
Quote
Lich would be a fantastic MPC addition.

This has been discussed to death by us, trust me. The Lich template, while awesome, is simply too powerful to be implemented without individual power leaning toward the absurd.

Conversely, limiting the power of the template would be a great disservice to the Lich. They're better left to NPC status. That said, if you're looking for Liches.. there's plenty in Sithicus.

I have and never will understand this mentality. Arcane casters already get shadow shield which gives the +5 Natural AC, and the base AC bonus could easily be dropped to +3 making it base level barkskin, Mind Blank and other spells that make them immune to mind-affecting as well.  Our ghouls wights and vampires have touch attacks that do special abilities, ALL of our MPC's get relatively huge stat gains compared to the Liches measly +2 to all mental, and the Elemental Immunities can easily be dropped to regular DR without being a massive nerf. Physical DR isn't that threatening either, at what I would assume would be 15/+1(2?). Our Mummies/Vampires already get Phylacteries/Coffins that allow them to respawn. The only disservice being done to the Lich is the belief that, somehow, it's bonuses and stats are what makes it such a frightening creature, not the fact that it is quite nearly immortal, and no matter how powerful the hero is, the Lich can plan and wait. The Lich is the fiend that chooses its battles. You don't hunt it, it hunts YOU.

I take it you're not familiar with Ravenloft's variation of the Lich. They're gifted with monstrously powerful abilities such as the capacity to automatically dominate lesser undead within literal miles of their presence. The others just get more ridiculous. Elketh is barely qualifies as such a thing and he rules over a demireality propagated by his own madness (and a healthy dose of dark powers). There's no way to do Liches justice for players. They're forces of nature and I've personally little desire to see them reduced from that status.

I am aware of the Liches salient abilities and most of them require several CENTURIES of existence to fully manifest. You could easily say, since our Liches would be newly made, and having a time limit of 6 months anyway, would not have time to manifest or understand all of their newfound abilities. Mummies and Vampires also gain these salient abilities, and while we only have Vampire Spawns, we do have Mummies. I repeat, the disservice being done here is adhering too vehemently to the perceived level of power a Lich gains because of its ABILITIES. There is a very powerful argument for the roleplay value of the Lich simply from its existence as a nearly immortal caster.

Fair enough then inasmuch as the abilities. Such said, if we're stripping away the very the very abilities that honestly make a Lich, a Lich, by Ravenloft's standards, the hell is the point in having the Lich at all? Why not just make them an Undead mage? I can't conceive of the advantage of trapping every player in the metamorphic state of an aspirant Lich; stifling their creativity due to the need to impose an artificial constraint (not having manifested any powers) based upon convenience and not plot. If you really want to dig into the motivations of the Lich, Gary Gygax, prior to his death wrote an entire article on them in Slayer's Guide to Undead (which luckily I possess). The driving force behind their existence is a psychological (read: neurotic) compulsion to complete an unfinished task (for example, Azalin Rex was compelled into undeath, amongst other reasons, because his son being a dolt). There's no way to satisfactorily explore a complexity like this in a period of six months, even if the issue of mechanics could be settled. Liches are an entity which almost essentially dictates that they be controlled by a DM -- There's no way a PC can manage the role unless a DM's basically holding their hand 24/7 which is an absurd expectation. To be hindered by the limitations of being a PC is, like simply cutting out mechanics, doing a great disservice to the Lich and I'l be loathe to see it done.

"The brave man inattentive to his duty, is worth little more to his country than the coward who deserts in the hour of danger."
~Andrew Jackson


herkles

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2015, 11:37:13 PM »
So aside from a lich, what other MPCs could we possible expect?


Feronius

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2015, 06:21:01 AM »
I'd like to see Werebats, although we do already have a wide selection of werecreatures to choose from.
Perhaps a sea or water related creature? That could be interesting for places like Port-a-Lucine or Vallaki.

Theorem Of Neutrality

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2015, 07:32:35 AM »
Revenant.

Death Knights.
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qwertyuioppp

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Re: Your overall preferences for the development of POTM
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2015, 07:41:48 AM »
Revenant.

Death Knights.
This is a fantastic idea, and I would jump at the chance to play one.

Maybe a new thread should be started just for MPC discussion?