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Author Topic: Perfidus - Feedback  (Read 6665 times)

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Perfidus - Feedback
« on: October 14, 2014, 12:19:22 AM »
So – I hate to be one of these people who says it, but. . . .MOAR XPS!!!

Actually – I was wondering if the CR could be evaluated on some of the creatures in Perfidus. A little while back, I tested the kind of XP that was generated there vs. Troll Chieftans. The group was with one level 19 character and 4 characters that ranged from 14 – 17. In one rest cycle in Perfidus, we killed 9 Pit Fiends, 11 Gelugons, and a few more of the creatures in the plains. This generated a 'Satisfied' rest message for my level 19 character (who was not in XP penalty or bonus – just the regular ole' “fresh enough to take in more” rest message) along with some of the lower level party members.

During one rest cycle against Troll Chieftans, the rest message has always indicated 'Proud' – even when stopping before necessary for the party. I could definitely be missing something, but in general it seems like the moderate size groups of enemies spike the CR a lot higher than single or small groups of more powerful enemies. Given how much more difficult Pit Fiends are (high AC/AB/saves/SR – powerful spells, greater dispel crazy) to face off against than Trolls, I thought it might be worth a looksie.

Just wanted to throw some feedback up on this after recording the numbers from some of the battles! Perfidus is a really fun place to take a group (especially ones that have limited experience there, because you can scare the bajeebus out of them). Lots of fun places to explore / diverse enemies / good loot – but I've heard a lot of comments about how the XP (specifically from the most powerful enemies) seems to be low given other combat options.

McNastea

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2014, 05:26:02 AM »
 :cheer:  :dancing: :cheer:
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Syl

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2014, 09:13:52 AM »
If we're going to talk about perfid what about traps? your telling me that throughout ALL that temple there isn't a single trap on anything? if this dungen is suppose to be a 15ish level dungen.... ( which with pitfiends being dang near untouchable even when fully buffed fighter comes in) THat there isn't ANY traps in the halls or on the chests to kill invaders or knock them out so they can claim them for sacrifices?!?!

While the dungen is long and full Mika is right and i have seen it many times. with the length of perfid from start to finish being about 1hour + to do; and yet you could do trolls and hotep in that aloted time no problem with the right group and get WAY more exp.. design wise and spawn wise there isn't really anything else wrong with it. But not everything gives you exp when your level 15 there. maybe.. maybe the ice demons might and the balors but those seem to give about the same amount of exp as a deer does a level 2, the only difference is these deers can and will kill you relativly easy

THe exp okay i can handle... but the fact that there is no sort of trap in a place filled with demons and demonoligists not even on a chest is what bothers me more.  SO I would like ot see some traps in the dungen if that is at all possible :)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 09:18:26 AM by Syl »

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2014, 05:14:10 PM »
Ice Demons? Is it the Gelugons you refer to? (if so they are devils)
Rewards wise, its pretty clearly Perfidus that hands out more loot, even IF xp is skewed to Desert Trolls. (I don' t believe it is, but it does require less effort and time commitment I grant)

The comment about not everything handing out xp in places has always irked me a bit, its very video gamey to want all inhabitants of a place to fit a CR range neatly. I prefer places be populated with the right type of monsters together and if they are challenging and give xp then so be it, if they are not then they are not. That's my own take anyway. I have always considered it neat to come across the monsters as a reward. If I am level 17 I may not get as much xp from encountering Malebranche or Hamatula as I will Dogai and Pit Fiends but its more interesting to have a variety to me.  I just wish that there was some way to interact with and/or learn about these Outsiders and really, all monsters beyond just slaying them. I would be surprised if the majority of the playerbase knows that Malebranche are demoted devils or that Dogai are sometimes known as "Assassin Devils" etc, even if their characters have killed them over and over and over.  If there was a server position just to spread readable dialogue or book items throughout the server to ICly share such things I would sign up haha, D&D monsters list are little treats and rewards in a way. I know most probably don't see it that way.  Maybe its because I have enjoyed the demonologist dungeon since the days it was on Lake Zarovich  and remember my first time in that cave, reading every little scrap of lore I could find on it.  I would rather it keep a very diverse Outsider population rather than more of the right CR range for maximum xp gain efficiency.  There are some solutions using existing Outsiders that don't require new models, advanced versions of some of the midrange CR types or even add lots of character classes to a Bueroza etc. Shame there is no model for a Paeliryon, that would be a great high CR encounter.


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respawnaholic

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 11:39:56 AM »
Ice Demons? Is it the Gelugons you refer to? (if so they are devils)
Rewards wise, its pretty clearly Perfidus that hands out more loot, even IF xp is skewed to Desert Trolls. (I don' t believe it is, but it does require less effort and time commitment I grant)

The comment about not everything handing out xp in places has always irked me a bit, its very video gamey to want all inhabitants of a place to fit a CR range neatly. I prefer places be populated with the right type of monsters together and if they are challenging and give xp then so be it, if they are not then they are not. That's my own take anyway. I have always considered it neat to come across the monsters as a reward. If I am level 17 I may not get as much xp from encountering Malebranche or Hamatula as I will Dogai and Pit Fiends but its more interesting to have a variety to me.  I just wish that there was some way to interact with and/or learn about these Outsiders and really, all monsters beyond just slaying them. I would be surprised if the majority of the playerbase knows that Malebranche are demoted devils or that Dogai are sometimes known as "Assassin Devils" etc, even if their characters have killed them over and over and over.  If there was a server position just to spread readable dialogue or book items throughout the server to ICly share such things I would sign up haha, D&D monsters list are little treats and rewards in a way. I know most probably don't see it that way.  Maybe its because I have enjoyed the demonologist dungeon since the days it was on Lake Zarovich  and remember my first time in that cave, reading every little scrap of lore I could find on it.  I would rather it keep a very diverse Outsider population rather than more of the right CR range for maximum xp gain efficiency.  There are some solutions using existing Outsiders that don't require new models, advanced versions of some of the midrange CR types or even add lots of character classes to a Bueroza etc. Shame there is no model for a Paeliryon, that would be a great high CR encounter.

I think the point Mika is trying to make isn't about exp per se'. Its that people tend to go 'run' Harakir as almost an afterthought while trying to motivate a party to go to perfidus or sithicus is like trying to get a child to go to the dentist due to the length required, and risk vs reward ratio. Also the trolls aren't exactly shabby in regards to loot. There's a reason that cave is farmed endlessly. Add in the fact that spawns in Harakir level extremely fast ( I have seen numerous times a party wipe out a max spawn near the hidden temple...double back to hit the troll caves....then come back to find another group of max spawned trolls. The place is an exp gold rush. Really the server should have changed its name to Ravenloft: Troll Farmers of the Mist ages ago. Most of the time people go to Perfidus it really isn't for the loot so much as for the varnish components anyway. I think Mika is just trying to say that beefing up exp and such in places like Perfidus or Sithicus would go a long way towards encouraging people to do something on the server besides loot/ farm Harakir endlessly.

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2014, 12:36:59 PM »
If you're going to Perfidus for the experience it might give you, I'd honestly say you're going for the wrong reason. That's not why people go to Perfidus. The reason people go to Perfidus is because the loot that's there is some of the best and most rare on the server. You're not going to see a Talisman of Dodging anywhere else (though I wonder why these items always bring in half a million with auctions when a barkskin potion only requires a handful of gold or some knowledge of herbalism).

I would suggest that Malthor lose the hellballs, though. It's really the worst epic spell out there, since you can basically keep yourself safe from it with Energy Buffer, a mid-level spell. Also make him perhaps use time stop less? It's annoying as hell to see him spam it, and it's annoying to see players counter-spam it (fun fact, DMs are informed of every single time the time stop spell is cast and who casts it). Give that guy some more Greater Ruins instead, along with some other epic spells like Epic Warding.

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2014, 12:42:29 PM »
(fun fact, DMs are informed of every single time the time stop spell is cast and who casts it).
At the risk of derailing for a second, can i ask why dm's are informed of TimeStop use? Is it because time stops and the spell, when unaltered by scripts, would have normally effected the entire server? Just curious.
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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2014, 01:38:53 PM »
*Thumbs up Respawnaholic*

I'd agree that people primarily go to Perfidus for crafting reagents and loot. The area is very good for both. I'm not sure I'd agree that it is justification for there being less XP than what may be warranted.

As Respawn pointed out – people do farm the trolls like no other. I love that the challenge was increased there with the +3 'weapons' and the Shamans. Makes it more difficult to 'troll' the trolls. I'd still state (in my opinion) a few trolls are /much/ easier to kill than one pit fiend. Regardless of what you may be able to harvest in Perfidus, I think the CR and XP for creatures should be based on the difficulty of taking them down in combat. Pit fiends have a lot of HP, high AC, high AB, a lot of powerful spells, they also regenerate, crazy high saves/skills, and they will nail you with so many greater dispels that you can't see straight. If you aren't able to take one down quickly (ie – the timestop dilemma), they'll completely strip your warriors down which makes them even less effective at facing the next pit fiend.

All in all – my point was that it is a lot more difficult to go through Perfidus than it is Har'Akir, so I think the XP should at least be equivalent if not slightly higher. It might encourage some of the mid to higher level characters to go there, leaving a little more action for appropriate level characters in Har'Akir.

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2014, 01:40:31 PM »
If you're going to Perfidus for the experience it might give you, I'd honestly say you're going for the wrong reason. That's not why people go to Perfidus. The reason people go to Perfidus is because the loot that's there is some of the best and most rare on the server. You're not going to see a Talisman of Dodging anywhere else (though I wonder why these items always bring in half a million with auctions when a barkskin potion only requires a handful of gold or some knowledge of herbalism).

WHile this is true we're talking a very RARE amulet and scarab +2 amulet seems to be the same rareity and +3 even more rare... How ever I have seen many people that will invis and just go for end loot ignoring everything and with a insain MS.. while I have nothing personally against people that want to do it and not trying to open a can of worms with that but makes finding it even more rare and harder... But yeah... half a mil for something like that is just WAY to much when it can be easily made. and the +2 uni saves amulet is vastly more useful. [shrugs] I haven't seen anything over spectacular pop out of perfidy in all the times I have ran it.. Well accept the ring of invisibility.. LOVE that ring

I still would prefer to see traps in that place even if its just on the chests. adds a bit more.. concern or caution when going there

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 01:47:12 PM »
This isn't about ninja looting or it's various problems/consequences. And to be quite honest it could be perfectly ic for a rogue like character to run in and enjoy the thrill of sneaking past danger for the loot. That makes a good thief. It just isn't an appropriate place to post that here since it has absolutely nothing to do with Perfidus - a hellish, nightmarish playground for horrors, devils, and abberations - being less of an experience to learn from than attacking a camp of desert trolls.
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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2014, 03:31:56 PM »
(fun fact, DMs are informed of every single time the time stop spell is cast and who casts it).
At the risk of derailing for a second, can i ask why dm's are informed of TimeStop use? Is it because time stops and the spell, when unaltered by scripts, would have normally effected the entire server? Just curious.

I think that's the primary reason. I remember the days where Time Stop affected the entire server, and chances are the script that has altered this reports when it fires.

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2014, 09:16:02 AM »
As developers, we'll be looking into the respawn rates in Har'Akir. If things respawn so fast that people can jump from one dungeon to another and always have great spawns it's an issue. In a similar vein, we'll be looking at the CRs there for the trolls since they seem a bit too high.

I've also made a few tweaks to Perfidus; I've altered Malthor's spells list a little bit and added traps to the containers there (there were always supposed to be traps but they were set up incorrectly so they wouldn't spawn). I'm not going to touch on the spawns there though; at least not for now. The XP/Loot rewards should be worth the trip.

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2014, 09:30:02 AM »
Quote
I've also made a few tweaks to Perfidus; I've altered Malthor's spells list a little bit and added traps to the containers there (there were always supposed to be traps but they were set up incorrectly so they wouldn't spawn). I'm not going to touch on the spawns there though; at least not for now. The XP/Loot rewards should be worth the trip.

WOOOOOO TRAPS!!!!!... * hurries over to the place to see them*

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2014, 11:20:46 AM »
xp for perfidus is subpar even with the loot. Considering you wont get any good items if you go with a party. Only my observation though. Been here for a while, every party I went with, on max spawn, and those containers would never produce anything note worthy for a player swoon over. I can go by myself each reset and get something, maybe even one of a kind items (dispel on hit amulet anyone?)

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2014, 07:05:17 PM »
As developers, we'll be looking into the respawn rates in Har'Akir. If things respawn so fast that people can jump from one dungeon to another and always have great spawns it's an issue. In a similar vein, we'll be looking at the CRs there for the trolls since they seem a bit too high.

I've also made a few tweaks to Perfidus; I've altered Malthor's spells list a little bit and added traps to the containers there (there were always supposed to be traps but they were set up incorrectly so they wouldn't spawn). I'm not going to touch on the spawns there though; at least not for now. The XP/Loot rewards should be worth the trip.

See this is how, you are not suppose to complain .. less XP from the troll now are you guys happy? respawn rate slower in Har Akir ? ... also now there is traps in Perfidus ? I hate you complainers !

Syl

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2014, 12:04:28 AM »
Ppppft..... WHy the fudge would there NOT be traps in perfidy!?!?!? THE PLACE IS GIANT!!!!!!... and not a single bloody trap?!... lol that's all I really cared about to be frank. was the traps

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chuuch1

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2015, 10:15:05 AM »
When you examin malthor, he has a regular pit fiend description.  Would be cool to see a custom one for him.

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2015, 04:19:50 PM »
One thing I've noticed, with the recent AI is that the mages all cast Timestop as their first spell, which would be nice, if they didnt all do it at the same time and thus effectively cancelling out the spell for eachother, thus making them easier than before.
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Syl

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2015, 04:23:11 PM »
One thing I've noticed, with the recent AI is that the mages all cast Timestop as their first spell, which would be nice, if they didnt all do it at the same time and thus effectively cancelling out the spell for eachother, thus making them easier than before.

ROFL gods that was bothersome it was like playing red light green light LOL by the time one cast it another was halfway through so when it faded it just came right back up! some even just seconds apart.

also I LOVE THE NEW TRAPS IN THERE!!!!! made the trip totally worth it for me!!!

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2015, 04:24:48 PM »
Well yes, my point was more that some of them cast it together at the same time, so two-three time stops go off, and noone can make use of it, since they've also timestopped eachother.
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McNastea

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2015, 04:30:18 PM »
Timestop is every mage in Perfidus's go to spell now-that's for sure. Even Malthor. You'd think it's all they know how to cast anymore :P
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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2015, 04:36:50 PM »
I just stood there on MOnica just going... please don't cast horrid wilting on me... please no horrid wilting....* sees mathor cast timestop* Please focuse on dante and hit him with ruin and hellball. [hug] No offence Dante love yeah but Monica brusies like a bananna lol then it just got old quick waiting for people to do things.. I think i watched the mob of people you killed they were still standing but dead.

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2015, 12:30:43 PM »
Is the Time Stop casting problem still an issue?

McNastea

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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2015, 12:54:43 PM »
Can't say, haven't been back. Will let you know next time, whenever that may be. Might be a time though since we have to go through the mists and aren't as enthusiastic about going through that all the time  :lol: If you wanna get it figured out asap though I'd be willing to test it, just port me in there, let us see what they do as far as cast order and raise me after I'm definitely killed ;)
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Re: Perfidus - Feedback
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2015, 02:10:21 AM »
Demonologists appear to be casting Knock on themselves, this is just a waste of their time.