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Author Topic: Default traps VS crafted traps.  (Read 9490 times)

McNastea

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2015, 10:16:03 AM »
You're right, stacking traps is messed up and was only a minor point I was making.

What I'm saying is, should there not be more of a balance struck between these two skills given a someone with 3/4th's the lvl of the other, both masters as much as they can be, can do something impossible for the more experienced person to stop.

Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this is a bit ridiculous, but getting some weigh in like Syl said from the developers on whether this is something intentional or overlooked or if they just don't care much about it would be nice :)
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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2015, 11:32:23 AM »
You're right, stacking traps is messed up and was only a minor point I was making.

What I'm saying is, should there not be more of a balance struck between these two skills given a someone with 3/4th's the lvl of the other, both masters as much as they can be, can do something impossible for the more experienced person to stop.

Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this is a bit ridiculous, but getting some weigh in like Syl said from the developers on whether this is something intentional or overlooked or if they just don't care much about it would be nice :)

No. It is actually kind of silly an expert trap disabler cant beat a trap placed by a good trap layer. These two skills should mirror the conflict between stealth vs spot. A good spotter should always beat a good stealther.

Syl

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2015, 12:13:17 PM »
You're right, stacking traps is messed up and was only a minor point I was making.

What I'm saying is, should there not be more of a balance struck between these two skills given a someone with 3/4th's the lvl of the other, both masters as much as they can be, can do something impossible for the more experienced person to stop.

Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this is a bit ridiculous, but getting some weigh in like Syl said from the developers on whether this is something intentional or overlooked or if they just don't care much about it would be nice :)

No. It is actually kind of silly an expert trap disabler cant beat a trap placed by a good trap layer. These two skills should mirror the conflict between stealth vs spot. A good spotter should always beat a good stealther.

True... I mean when I RP how i set some of my traps, its not just a wire running across gears and springs and whatever... I RP placing many false wires and ones hidden  by other ones  so it would be misleading. But i can't RP that all the time lol

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2015, 11:29:17 PM »

These two skills should mirror the conflict between stealth vs spot. A good spotter should always beat a good stealther.

I respectfully STRONGLY disagree with that statement.  Not to go off-topic too far, but why should a good spotter always beat a good stealther?  What is the inherent advantage that spot should always have over stealth?  Why should there be any assumption at all that one skill should always trump another skill?

If you are looking at this from a deisre for "balance" between a level 15 and a level 20, under the mistaken assumption that a level 20 should always be able to trump a level 15 head to head, I think this is a mistaken assumption and a mistaken comparison. This is not about the set trap ability of a level 15 versus the disable trap ability of a level 20.  This should be a comparison of the set trap ability of a level 15 versus the set trap ability of a level 20, and the disable trap ability of a level 15 versus the disable trap ability of a level 20.  When you look at it that way, the level 20 clearly has the advantage in both skills against a level 15.

The level 20 trapper can set a trap at a higher DC than the level 15, and can conversely disarm traps that the level 15 cannot disarm.  Thus the level 20 is superior to the level 15, as it should be, in terms of skill.  The fact that there are traps that are equally available to both characters that are so strong that neither one of them would be able to disarm them, well that is not an imbalance vis-a-vis those two characters -- that is just the function of having really strong traps available (to both characters, I must reiterate).  I would alo point out that the level 20 could very likely set the exact same trap and the poor level 15 might not even have a chance in hell of even spotting it, let alone disarming it.  Conversely, the level 20 might have at least a chance to spot a trap set by the level 15, thereby avoiding it.


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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2015, 02:01:26 PM »

These two skills should mirror the conflict between stealth vs spot. A good spotter should always beat a good stealther.

I respectfully STRONGLY disagree with that statement.  Not to go off-topic too far, but why should a good spotter always beat a good stealther?  What is the inherent advantage that spot should always have over stealth?  Why should there be any assumption at all that one skill should always trump another skill?

If you are looking at this from a deisre for "balance" between a level 15 and a level 20, under the mistaken assumption that a level 20 should always be able to trump a level 15 head to head, I think this is a mistaken assumption and a mistaken comparison. This is not about the set trap ability of a level 15 versus the disable trap ability of a level 20.  This should be a comparison of the set trap ability of a level 15 versus the set trap ability of a level 20, and the disable trap ability of a level 15 versus the disable trap ability of a level 20.  When you look at it that way, the level 20 clearly has the advantage in both skills against a level 15.

The level 20 trapper can set a trap at a higher DC than the level 15, and can conversely disarm traps that the level 15 cannot disarm.  Thus the level 20 is superior to the level 15, as it should be, in terms of skill.  The fact that there are traps that are equally available to both characters that are so strong that neither one of them would be able to disarm them, well that is not an imbalance vis-a-vis those two characters -- that is just the function of having really strong traps available (to both characters, I must reiterate).  I would alo point out that the level 20 could very likely set the exact same trap and the poor level 15 might not even have a chance in hell of even spotting it, let alone disarming it.  Conversely, the level 20 might have at least a chance to spot a trap set by the level 15, thereby avoiding it.



Right, but the original point being made is a level 20 trap disabler with maxed skill AND using maxed gear CANT disarm a trap set by someone 5 levels LOWER than they are. I would argue that is a game breaking flaw if traps were not so rare in general.

Syl

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2015, 02:17:05 PM »
To be fair and honest some of the traps ARE rare... Like i only know of one place where you can get 2 deadly electrical traps.. otherwise Deadly fire is normally in alhoon depending on spawn I've been told deadly fire now spawns at perfid though... Deadly gas and acid blob at hotep... Deadly Frost at Ice witch..

So if you want to say some of these traps aren't Rare know that the most powerful one is very rare and very few run that dungen...Though deadly gas is pretty killer also..I can start talking numbers on the traps but thats no fun lol

And also just putting it out there.. I have seen more people use the crafted traps then the default traps since it seems some prefer the crafted since it's easier to get the damage of about a strong and not requier the skill to recover the trap.

And lets also add in... How many ACTUALLY use traps or can recover these deadly ones?

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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2015, 09:25:14 PM »
Right, but the original point being made is a level 20 trap disabler with maxed skill AND using maxed gear CANT disarm a trap set by someone 5 levels LOWER than they are. I would argue that is a game breaking flaw if traps were not so rare in general.

I don't necessarily think this is a "game breaker"

Again, I see no inherent flaw in a level 20 not being able to disarm something set by a level 15.  This is not because there is something broken in the skill system -- it is simply because there are default traps that exist that are soooooo powerful that no one can realistically disarm them if they are set by someone with a skill much higher than 21 (i.e. the lowest default disarm DC is 22, so factoring in a take 20 roll for the disarm attempt, a person would need a disarm skill of 23 or better... and 23 is the highest you get without buffs or feats).

What you are effectively arguing for is that default traps are too powerful, and should not be available in the mod.  If this is what the playerbase wants, and the developers agree, then that is a policy choice that could be implemented.  But it should be pointed out that you would be depriving players of all levels of traps they can use against monsters.

More importantly, I think the notion that there is something unfair about a level 20 not being able to disarm a trap set by a level 15 is misplaced.  Why should a level 20 be able to disarm every trap that is set by a lower level player?  Why is is somehow believed to be unbalanced if, beyond a certain skill point, all traps set by players simply become un-disarmable regardless of level?

I think this is being generated by a misplaced belief that higher level characters should (because of their skill and experience) never really be threatened by lower level characters in PvP.  The idea that the level 20 is so vastly superior in skill that there is no way he or she should ever get blown up by a trap set by a mere level 15 has no rational basis to it.  As a real world example, it does not take much skill to bury a landmine, or set an improvised explosive device, but it takes a LOT of skill to try and find them (first) and disable them (second).  Very experienced explosives disposal personnel can be injured or killed by weapons set by someone that might have minimal education or experience.

Again, if the consensus of the playerbase is that all default traps are overpowered and should be toned down or removed, that is a policy choice that can be made.  But it shouldn't be made under the specious rationale that a level 20 should always be able to disarm something set by a level 15, any more than a level 20 should always be able to resist a spell cast by a level 15, or a level 20 should be able to shrug off a sword strike by a level 15.  I don't see why this must be the case as a matter of logic or game balance.


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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2015, 05:58:12 AM »
Right, but the original point being made is a level 20 trap disabler with maxed skill AND using maxed gear CANT disarm a trap set by someone 5 levels LOWER than they are. I would argue that is a game breaking flaw if traps were not so rare in general.

I don't necessarily think this is a "game breaker"

Again, I see no inherent flaw in a level 20 not being able to disarm something set by a level 15.  This is not because there is something broken in the skill system -- it is simply because there are default traps that exist that are soooooo powerful that no one can realistically disarm them if they are set by someone with a skill much higher than 21 (i.e. the lowest default disarm DC is 22, so factoring in a take 20 roll for the disarm attempt, a person would need a disarm skill of 23 or better... and 23 is the highest you get without buffs or feats).

What you are effectively arguing for is that default traps are too powerful, and should not be available in the mod.  If this is what the playerbase wants, and the developers agree, then that is a policy choice that could be implemented.  But it should be pointed out that you would be depriving players of all levels of traps they can use against monsters.

More importantly, I think the notion that there is something unfair about a level 20 not being able to disarm a trap set by a level 15 is misplaced.  Why should a level 20 be able to disarm every trap that is set by a lower level player?  Why is is somehow believed to be unbalanced if, beyond a certain skill point, all traps set by players simply become un-disarmable regardless of level?

I think this is being generated by a misplaced belief that higher level characters should (because of their skill and experience) never really be threatened by lower level characters in PvP.  The idea that the level 20 is so vastly superior in skill that there is no way he or she should ever get blown up by a trap set by a mere level 15 has no rational basis to it.  As a real world example, it does not take much skill to bury a landmine, or set an improvised explosive device, but it takes a LOT of skill to try and find them (first) and disable them (second).  Very experienced explosives disposal personnel can be injured or killed by weapons set by someone that might have minimal education or experience.

Again, if the consensus of the playerbase is that all default traps are overpowered and should be toned down or removed, that is a policy choice that can be made.  But it shouldn't be made under the specious rationale that a level 20 should always be able to disarm something set by a level 15, any more than a level 20 should always be able to resist a spell cast by a level 15, or a level 20 should be able to shrug off a sword strike by a level 15.  I don't see why this must be the case as a matter of logic or game balance.

Right, but were not just talking about a level 20 character not being able to beat a level 15 character in trap setting vs disarming. Were talking about a level 20 character SPECIFICALLY built to disarm traps using nothing but disarming gear not being able to disarm a trap set by someone five levels lower. That is a flaw. There is just no other way to put it. No one is saying a level 20 character should be inherently better than a level 15 character at everything, but it stands to reason a character who is dedicated to trap disarming using nothing but gear to disarm traps should be thwarted by someone FIVE levels lower. If the system were balanced then at level 20 vs 20 there should be a 50/50 chance to disarm AT WORSE. One is a passive skill and one is an active skill. In order to disarm the trap you need to actually know its there first. That already places the disarm-er at something of a disadvantage since they need to actively be searching for something before they can even get to disarming it.

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2015, 10:38:26 AM »
However, the "detect" DC of a trap is always signficantly lower than the "disarm" DC of a trap.  Moreover, you roll your detect rolls constantly, so if you are actively searching and have maxed your search, eventually the level 20 will spot the trap set by the level 15 (probably very quickly, I might add).  The reverse is not necessarily true -- a trap set by a level 20 is going to be much harder for a level 15 to detect.

Assume both characters have maxed out their search skill at their respective levels.  The level 20 has a 5 point advantage in search, as well as a 5 point advantage in set trap.  All the default detect DCs are eiher 10+set trap skill or 14+set trap skill (not counting epic traps, which I havae never seen here).  These DCs are pretty low, so the real difference maker is the set trap skill of the setter.  Here, the level 20 has the clear advantage -- their trap is going to be 5 points higher to detect, and the level 15's search skill is 5 points lower, so there is a net 10 point difference between a level 15 trying to detect a trap set by a 20, versus a level 20 trying to detect a trap set by a level 15.

But back to the original issue -- the notion that a level 20 setter versus a level 20 disarmer should be a 50/50 proposition is a false equivalence.  There is no reason why that should be a 50/50 proposition -- if a trap is nearly impossible to disarm, then it is nearly impossible to disarm for everyone.  Idon't see why the two skills have to "balance" each other.

This is different from two "levels" balancing each other.  In your example, the two level 20s should be equivalent in skill -- they can both set traps at an equivalent level, and disarm traps at an equivalent level.  The same would go for two level 15s.  The characters are balanced in what they can all do.  The concern you are raising is that there are traps that are too powerful, such that they are undisarmable by anyone beyond a certain point.

Take the deadly traps out of the equation, and focus on minor traps for a moment, and you will see my point:  a minor spike trap has a base detect DC of 10 and a base disarm DC of 22.  If set by a maxed out level 20, you are looking at a base DC of approximately 39 for detect, and a base DC of 47 for disarm (depending on how the DEX and INT of the character was built, but assuming an end DEX of 23 and INT of 14).  This could all go up depending on gear, feats, buffs, etc., but these are the likely base numbers.  Feats, gear, buffs, etc. are all equally available to everyone, so those effects can be discounted for the moment, since the core number that is critical is the base number.

A level 20 disarm-build searching for this trap will have a max search of approximately 25 (assuming an INT of 14).  Thus, rolling every round, this character will have to roll a 14 or better to spot the trap (35% chance of success each round).  Thus, it is only a matter of time before it gets spotted.  The same trap set by a level 15 should have a DC at least 5 points lower, making detection success occur at a 9 or better (60% of success each round).  The level 20 will likely not ever by taken by surprise by a trap set by a level 15, unless he or she is just running around without any precaution.

Conversely, it will be much harder to disarm this same trap.  The level 20 disarm build will likely have a base disable trap skill of approximately 25 (assuming an INT of 14).  Thus, without buffs, even with a take-20 this character would not be able to disarm a trap set by another level 20.  However, the same trap set by a level 15 will be 5 points easier (for an approximate base DC of 42), meaning that the level 20 will be able to disarm that trap with a take-20.

Thus, when you strip away all the buffs, feats, and magic items and focus instead on the innate skills of the characters, there is no "imbalance" between level 20s and level 15s.  However, more interestingly, you can see that a skills battle between a level 20 and another level 20 is NOT a 50/50 proposition -- the trap setter has a few points of advantage over the disarmer, making the trap undisarmable.  Nevertheless, it should be pointed out that the trap is still detectable, and it can also be easily examined (base DC -7), and can be flagged so that others can avoid it (base DC -5).  Players should use "examine" and "flag" far more often than they do, and recognize that walking around a trap is often the wiser course of action.

If people believe that "balance" is achieved by a disarmer being able to disable a trap, as opposed to being able to spot and flag a trap and avoid it entirely, then I think this is a mistaken impression.  As long as you can find the trap, you can avoid the trap.  Even if you can't disarm it yourself and feel an absolute need to get rid of the trap entirely, you can simply invest a pocket full of Summon I scrolls and have your badger disarm it the hard way (that is essentially what modern bomb-disposal squads do today with their robots).


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Syl

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2015, 01:23:01 AM »
?.? So.. many numbers... Munchkin your killing my brain at midnight lad...

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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2016, 03:21:53 AM »
A maybe somewhat offtopic question: can we recover non crafted traps? I mean, those who spawn in dungeons?
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DM Ariadne

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2016, 04:22:21 AM »
Yes, though not all of them (such as the swing traps in Har'Akir).
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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2016, 11:34:05 AM »
Yes, though not all of them (such as the swing traps in Har'Akir).

Then I'm having a bug? I couldn't recover the traps in the morninglords catacombs? And by "I couldn't" I mean the radial menu didn't work.
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LeviShultz

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2016, 12:00:40 PM »
Not all traps are recoverable, either from a "this a a hole in the ground trap and its not physically possible" perspective or its simply set not able to be recovered. The trap in question has to be set to both dynamic and able to be recovered. The sonic and spike traps on the 2nd floor of the ML church are not recoverable presently. I don't know if this is an oversight or intentional [shrugs]

For contrast, the traps in the Kobold cave in western outskirts are recoverable.

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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2016, 12:06:30 PM »
Not all traps are recoverable, either from a "this a a hole in the ground trap and its not physically possible" perspective or its simply set not able to be recovered. The trap in question has to be set to both dynamic and able to be recovered. The sonic and spike traps on the 2nd floor of the ML church are not recoverable presently. I don't know if this is an oversight or intentional [shrugs]

For contrast, the traps in the Kobold cave in western outskirts are recoverable.

Oh. Ok. Gonna keep trying then.
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Hatsune

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2016, 06:14:33 PM »
90% of traps are recoverable, roughly. There's only a handful that I have found that arn't! So don't despair!
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Syl

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2016, 11:20:40 PM »
The default traps that can be recovered are Electrical, fire, acid splash, acid blob, tangle, ice, holy and negative. From minor to deadly.

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LeviShultz

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Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2016, 01:35:11 AM »
There's even an

Spoiler: show
epic frost trap at the bottom of Veidrava


you can recover.


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