Author Topic: Default traps VS crafted traps.  (Read 9537 times)

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Default traps VS crafted traps.
« on: September 03, 2014, 05:01:02 PM »
Alright… So I don’t know if this topic ever came up but I have had 3 people help me out with this now. Sedrik/ Jiao/ and cord…. They have all asked me what I am getting at when I have them help me so….Here it is…
I play a Rogue Monica O’Sullivan as we know and I figured I would play with the traps and have been working my set trap since day 1 on her….Now here is the problem and it kinda grows opening into more problems. I originally started with a default normal Minor holy trap. Which turned into a dc 51 to disarm Which isn’t bad…well its difficult bad because we’re talking about a minor trap having the difficulty of almost a deadly trap ONLY disable it.. However these are the default traps and I believe they are hard coded so they are standard and normal….Where the problem lays is the crafted traps… Now while I have played with them before and they are a lot of fun… their disarm DC is lower… dropping down to a dc 46 to disable it… Which doesn’t seem right I mean its not a normal craft trap which the skill caps at a certain point.. I think its like… 17+skill max of 30….we used one of the advanced trap kits which removes the skill cap… I’m digging for the screen shots on my laptop to find them since I took a snap shot of the traps we used….

HOWEVER… after a while Sedrik set of the Powerful magic trap and the damage system brought it up claiming it was an average spike trap I noticed it to the thanks of him since I also failed my reflex save and it chewed half my health away….(heh)… So…I looked up the skills for that AND grabbed a trap of the same kind for the next test.

Numbers for average spike trap are after the strength of the trap is the DC to set the trap which is 20… than the dc to spot it than the dc to disable it.
Spike average   20    10 + skill    22 + skill
            
And any of the standard traps DCs and numbers be found if one simple looks for it.
I originally thought that it was just the magic trap so I snagged sedrik and we triggered a few more of my traps, all crafted one of them was a normal trap kit with a skill cap the rest were the advanced ones, and ALL of them claimed the trap was an average spike trap. So there is something wrong with DC on the disable for the crafted traps I’m not sure if there is someone that would know more and would be able to help me out here but I know Sedrik and I talked about it a bit.
As I have said this is really only the tip of the iceberg on the crafted traps while they are very cool and fun to use and there is more I can say on the topic… why would I place one if only to inflict magical damage since no one can resist that.
Here are the screen shots I had Jiao take for me and send to me on the DCs. (I had no set trap gear on at that time So all DCs you see are just off my skill alone.)


THis one is the Avrage spike trap.



THis one is the crafted advance powerful magical trap

I'll post the pther screenshots up once i find them in my mess of a Screenshot folder

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Ellana Twiggy

  • Guest
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 06:01:49 PM »
Actually, the standard traps if they're found on things in dungeons don't have a hard coded dc to disable them, that's set by whom ever set up the area traps. As far as setting them yourself, I think it hinges on your skill and the trap. But I'm not certain about that. And I have no idea myself about the crafted traps here. Maybe that can help some?

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 06:14:26 PM »
I already took into count of mine. i'm talking of normal ones preset on a chest... like lets go with Alhoon for example.. those are deadly fire traps, and to recover them it is a dc 50 disable device.... now thats just the standard I believe I haven't played in the toolset to much on traps in a while so I might need to do that again... How ever for a player to set them and determin their DC to disable its 36+ skill....and if I set the trap down it would be 65...only wearing my rogue belt mind you.....

But the traps you craft with steel and use the advance trap kit which does not cap your skill added to the disarm... its still no where near the trap i just set that i recoved from a chest.

I will have to go through my screenshots which are a big mess but i have the shots that will show the stats for the crafted trap.. IE the dc to set it..the DC determination for spot it and then to disable it

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 12:44:09 AM »
http://


Here is the crafted trap I was using for the original test... they system when it was triggered classified it as a average spike trap..and the stats for me setting a average spike trap are already posted.... So someone explain to me how a default trap can be better than a crafted one?....on a side note... also would be nice to know why it the two reflex saves. lol

unless someone wants to step on one of the crafted traps for me and take a screen shot of the combat log and send me the screenshot for that whole trap... (preferably someone without evasion) otherwise I have to go with Bad_Bud on telling me it was saying that the game said it was a average spike trap when he triggered it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 12:49:28 AM by Syl »

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

HellHeavenKnight

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2014, 02:39:14 AM »

Arrghh I don't understand this trend at all

dark_majico

  • Guest
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2014, 04:35:08 AM »
I don't understand this thread, what is syl trying to say?

Kendric98

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1681
  • Omnipotent Overlord of the Omniverse!
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2014, 06:05:18 AM »
Some kind of complicated thieves cant about traps i think.

Samson/Tatyanna Costella

Mayvind

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 748
  • I won't Bite
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2014, 06:35:16 AM »
Too complicate Just tell us what to do !!!  :lol:

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2014, 09:25:23 AM »
Sorry for being horrible with my words but...thanks for the chuckles....I guess to put it simple..

THe crafted traps need to be fixed if people wish to actually make use out of them...

I know not many actually make use of traps and while I rather enjoy using them. its easier and less weight to carry the normal traps the game provided than use a crafted trap which is weaker and weighs more.

I only know of a few other rogues and or people that acutally use/make use of traps. and the crafted traps are nice in some ways, But their script or whatever is treating them as avrage spike traps... and they have two saves....

Example... the crafted.. Powerful cold advance trap... has a Reflex AND a fort save.....where the game default trap only has the fort save.


Sorry for not being the best at explaining things... I know what i want to say it just.... never comes out right... Hopefully someone can explain it better if i haven't done so.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 09:42:14 AM by Syl »

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Mayvind

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 748
  • I won't Bite
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2014, 11:02:19 AM »
Let me sum what yours are saying in simpel way. It is that players made traps SUCKS while the default game traps BETTER ? And it should be the other way around ?

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2014, 11:16:25 AM »
They don't truely have to be "Better" But when you look at the crafted things on the server... they are normally better than your "Average" weapon....How ever as soon as we move toward crafted traps IE you use a smith steel ingets and a varnish... your not below the average bar... While the damage may be higher thats fine but thats all based on the strength of the varnish you put it...

The DC to set them and detect them are lower than normal traps....

I threw the numbers for a average spike trap... what the DC to set it... the DC to detect and the DC to disable.....

And those numbers again are Spike average   20    10 + skill    22 + skill
Yet the crafted one which is " Powerful magic ADVANCE trap" and they are DC 35 to set DC 14+ trap skill to detect.. and DC 20+ trap skill to disable....
If its a "Powerful magic ADVANCE trap".....why is it easier to disable than a average spike trap? what are we basing the crafted traps off of????

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2014, 11:34:38 AM »
I am sorry if i am not making much sense on what i'm trying to get at...I know what i am trying ot say but....I can't seem to get it down right... [bangs head on desk in frustration]

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Merry Munchkin

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2014, 11:55:13 AM »
Rogues are my favorite character class to play, and I have played with the default trap system in NWN since its inception, but have little experience with the specialized trap crafting system in PoTM.  That said, there are a few observations that might help.

First, the module creators can set the various DCs of the trap system to whatever they want -- this aspect of the game is entirely customizable by the builder, so it is not unusual to have traps that depart rather drastically from the standard template.  That said, I agree that a customized trap system should not create traps that are dramatically inferior to the default traps, while simultaneously allowing purchase of default traps.  This would create a huge disincentive to anyone from crafting traps.

Second, the DCs in your screenshot would seem to be correct and not bugged in any way.  For any trap, default or custom, the base "set trap" DC is going to be different from the final "disarm" or "recover" DC.  The "set trap" number is fixed (either default or custom).  It won't change relative to your skill level.  However, for a trap that a PC sets, the disarm/recover/detect DC will be relative to the setting PC's skill level.  Thus, in your example, the builders decided to make the base detect DC of your magical trap as 16 plus whatever the PCs set trap skill might be, and the base disarm DC is 20 plus your set trap level.  In your case, it appears your set trap skill is 30.

This is why when Jiao was trying to examine, disarm, and recover, the respective DC for each action was 43, 50, and 60.  Examine is the base DC (20) plus your skill level minus 7, the disarm DC is base plus skill level, and the recover DC is base plus skill level plus 10.

So, all those numbers appear to be okay.  It should be noted that a person with a set trap skill level of 15 (the lowest possible to safely set this trap with a take20), would end up with DCs of 28, 35, and 45.

I can't compare your magic trap to any of the default traps in the game, since there are no magical traps in the system by default.  However, it may be that when the builder established the trap template, he or she started with a spike trap and modified it.  That may be why the system is registering it as a "spike trap" in the dialog box.  However, as long as the DC's are correct, and the effects of an activated trap are correct, the fact that the system recognizes the trap as a "spike trap" is just a quirk, rather than a bug.

Nevertheless, I would tend to agree that the traps themselves should not weigh more than a default trap you can buy in-game.  Also, the DCs do not seem to correlate well with the powers of the trap.  In your example, the set trap DC is 35, which equates to a "deadly" trap DC in some of the standard default traps (some deadly traps are only DC 30).  The disarm DCs for most default deadly traps with a set trap DC of 35, however, are:

Acid blob - 31 plus set trap score
Electrical - 36 plus set trap score
Fire - 36 plus set trap score
Gas (average) - 31 plus set trap score
Spike - 36 plus set trap score

As you can see, the default traps are just as hard to set as your crafted trap but are much harder to disarm.  There are no default traps in NWN that have a disarm DC as low as 20 (even the minor traps have a base disarm DC of 22 as the lowest). The save DC of 25 is comparable to other default deadly traps, however.

Also, even though your magical trap does a respectable 6d12 of damage (half damage with reflex save), and few creatures have magical damage resistance, this really pales in comparison with the equivalent default traps listed above:

Acid blob - 18d6 plus paralysis save
Electrical - 30d6
Fire - 25d6
Gas (average) - ability damage
Spike - 25d6

In short, the magical trap you have is just as hard to set as other deadly traps, and has a comparable save DC, but does potentially less damage, and is easier to detect and disarm, and is also heavier to carry.  However, I should caution that these are only the defaults within NWN, and that the builders could have modified these default traps as well.  Also, the builders may have thought that because fire, cold, and electrical resistance is more commonly available than magical resistance, the lower damage amounts are justifiable.  I think you might want to do an actual experiment comparing apples-to-apples:  for example, craft a series of spike traps of increasing power, and compare them head-to-head against the spike traps you purchase from various vendors, and see if there is a substantial difference.  You could do the same with fire, electrical, frost, etc.  I have not seen a trap table anywhere on the forums that describes the stats for the crafted traps or default traps here on PoTM, so I don't know of any easy way to compare them short of running an actual experiment.

I would tend to agree with you, however -- if I have the choice between crafting a trap or buying an a trap with an equivalent "set trap" DC and save DC, I would pick the choice that gave me (1) a trap that is more difficult to detect and disarm, (2) the trap that gives me more damage, and (3) the trap that weighs less (rogues typically can't carry a lot).  All else being equal, I would also pick the option that is less expensive.


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2014, 12:21:31 PM »
Well thats alot better than the way i was trying to say.... I guess i should have thought about having someone help make a crafted spike trap.. that just didn't come to mind right away when i was having someone help test them out. I have made all the elemental types of traps on one of my toons. and have set them on my rogue... ( not the same traps mind you just ones people have made me and i used)

I just always loved the idea of being able ot craft your own traps.. and while the elemental ones do some nice things other than just damage.

I guess I'll have someone help me make a crafted spike trap or two and than recompare..

Quote
I would tend to agree with you, however -- if I have the choice between crafting a trap or buying an a trap with an equivalent "set trap" DC and save DC, I would pick the choice that gave me (1) a trap that is more difficult to detect and disarm, (2) the trap that gives me more damage, and (3) the trap that weighs less (rogues typically can't carry a lot).  All else being equal, I would also pick the option that is less expensive.

But yes.. I'm all about free and or cheap on my rogue since I carry so little gold on her and can hardly carry anything..... SO thats why I normally recover all my traps from chests. [snikers]

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

LeviShultz

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2014, 10:06:41 AM »
After spending quite a lot of time playing with traps, and finally making a few of my own yesterday, a humble bump for improving PC crafted traps.

"A no wisdom ranger is literally unwise."

Merry Munchkin

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2014, 10:06:43 PM »
After spending quite a lot of time playing with traps, and finally making a few of my own yesterday, a humble bump for improving PC crafted traps.

Is there something specific that you noticed was a discrepancy between default traps and crafted ones?  I was hoping that someone had run a side-by-side comparison (I am just starting to learn the PoTM crafting system in smithing, so I can't do the comparison myself).


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP

LeviShultz

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2014, 12:28:27 AM »
As Syl mention, the damage and their weight are issues.  Additionally, they have a smaller hit box. (this can be good or bad depending on how many traps you have) Also for the amount of resources and time spent crafting them, they should yield better results.

EDIT: Now that I'm thinking about it, crafted traps also come with unique aspects not seen in their store bought cousins. The weak fire trap I made has a knockdown chance and the weak spike trap has an aoe effect and does a 3d6, equivalent to an average spike trap. Gonna see what else I can find.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 06:44:17 AM by LeviShultz »

"A no wisdom ranger is literally unwise."

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2014, 10:00:08 AM »
For crafted traps they do the following..

Acid does paralyz

electrice does stun

Fire knockdown

Neg, umm... str drain?.. don't know I would need someone to test that been a while since i have had one.

Ice does freeze solid. AKA payalyz

Edit: Also the damage is based the strength of the varnish weak being blah and so on... it seems the varnish you use just transfers the damage it would to if thrown over to the trap.

Magic can't remember i think that one is just magic damage.

 and spike has a HUGE AOE..
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 10:08:52 AM by Syl »

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

McNastea

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • "We want to make all the rules" -Misakato
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2015, 08:28:36 PM »
I think the biggest point that should be made is that it's impossible for a lvl 20 character with max disable, items that increase disable far beyond what can be found with normal loot items using faction items and int increasing items, to disable a trap set by a character that's lvl 15. This just seems to be a major oversight to me. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be traps that can be set that would be difficult to impossible for people with the max gear/skill/buffs to disable-but for someone that has things not available to the public as well as maxed skill points and buffs to not be able to disable a trap set by someone with the max set trap points possible at lvl 15 is just.. eh. Is this intentional?
Tobias Loarca | Braern Delsaryn | Anwar

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2015, 08:54:23 PM »
You and I have had this talk before if I remember lol... and Most don't even use traps anyways and I believe there are special rules when using them to kill somebody with them. Though it can seem unfair that you can't disable it but [shrugs] though as I stated on traps a few times.. Not sure if it was on here.

The default traps you find their numbers are set so if I set a deadly electrical or fire trap its 36+ skill = DC to disable. So in Monica's case half buffed ( since I don't have cat grace scrolls on hand. its a different scroll and then Maybe... and item? ( goes and checks) She is at a 29 set trap without items... ( if I remove her belt that is.) Otherwise she normally sits at a 30 Set trap.... add in gloves and scroll thatss another 5... so that's 36+35= DC 71 to disable the Default deadly trap.

Though I guess if it is intentional... I can say look on the Brightside......They turned off the critical failure effect where it goes off in your face if you fail to badly. IE a critical failure.

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

McNastea

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • "We want to make all the rules" -Misakato
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2015, 09:46:36 PM »
Maybe, but it's still unbalanced regardless of whether it's intentional or not

By contrast, a lvl 20 with maxed disable and average int modifier for rogue without disable skill focus will end up with 25 disable (23+2 from int). Add in belt (+1), helm (+1), gloves (+2), robes (+1) and you have 30. Another +2 from max int buff for 32 + 20 die roll for 52 skill without skill focus or synergy at lvl 20 v a lvl 15's DC of 71. Even if you add +3 from skill focus and +4 from synergy you're still short 12 points at mac lvl and skill with available items from disabling a trap that should be within your ability to disable.

Let's add in the items that I have that aren't lootable and see what happens to someone with skill focus, synergy and max skill points at lvl 20 with a +4 int mod.

+3

Grats, 61 points!

You're decked out in disable gear and have the skill maxed and can't come close to disabling someone who is 5 skill points (and therefore 5 DC points) from maxing their skill.

So, is this intentional?
Tobias Loarca | Braern Delsaryn | Anwar

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2015, 10:01:39 PM »
[looks to the DMs for an answer]

* does math* I know at level 20 If Monica ever makes it that high with a 16 int.... and everything else Monica will have a 25 disable. [shrugs]

It might have not been intentional intended because they are the original NWN traps.

And well... lets face it... who ever thought of using Traps before? They removed the craft trap ability for rogues since it would be WAY to easy for them to make the deadly traps fast. especially the negative ones. lol

But hopefully a DM can give us a solid answer.

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Merry Munchkin

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2015, 10:00:09 PM »
Whether it is intentional or not, I don't necessarily think it is unbalanced.  As a practical matter, traps are static -- you can't "cast" them on anyone, they have to stumble on to them to hurt anybody.  If you spot the trap, you can avoid the trap, or attempt to trigger it from a distance if it is protecting a chest or door.  If you know the trap is there, you could even buff yourself up and "disarm" it the hard way (by triggering it) -- I knew a barbarian once that used this particular technique routinely (he invested in a lot of bandages and healing pots).

An unbuffed "naked" level 15 trap setter will have 18 points in the set trap skill, plus dexterity modifier.  Assume at level 15 the trap setter has bumped their DEX to the 20-21 range (+5).  That gives a base skill of 23.

When a player sets a trap, the DC is the detect DC of the trap + the setters set trap skill only (there is no d20 roll on top of that).  Thus, for the powerful crafted fire trap in Syl's earlier example, the detect DC for spotting the trap would be 14+23=37.  A person searching for traps will roll d20 + search skill + any modifiers every round, so someone will a search skill of 17 or better will have a chance at spotting the trap, and thereby avoiding it.  A level 20 would likely have a search skill much higher than that.

Similarly, the disarm DC for that same trap is 20+set trap skill, so in this example the disarm DC would be 43.  Difficult to disarm for many players, but for a maxed out level 20 with a "take 20" it would be easily done.

In contrast, the non-crafted, default NWN traps are much harder to detect and disarm (which is one of the criticisms of the crafted traps we raised earlier in the thread).  Those DCs, as Syl pointed out for the default deadly fire trap, would be 22+skill to detect, and 36+skill to disarm.  In practical terms, if we use our "naked" trap setter as the baseline, the detect DC would be 45, and the disarm would be 59.  A level 20 character with 23 skill points in search and disarm trap would have a chance to spot the trap with some buffs (thereby having a chance to avoid it), although disarming would be quite difficult without at least +16 in buffs.  A "strong" trap, in contrast, would have a detect DC of 18+skill, and a disarm DC of 31+skill, which makes spotting the trap much easier, although still hard to disarm.  An "average" trap, by comparison, is essentially equivalent to the crafted powerful trap in Syl's example (14+skill, and 26+skill, respectively).

It should be noted that this is only for traps that are set by players.  The developers can set the trap DCs for anything they place in the module at whatever they want, so if there is a module-based trap that has an annoyingly high DC, that is not an imbalance in the game but a choice of the developer.


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP

McNastea

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • "We want to make all the rules" -Misakato
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2015, 09:22:15 AM »
Whether it is intentional or not, I don't necessarily think it is unbalanced.  As a practical matter, traps are static -- you can't "cast" them on anyone, they have to stumble on to them to hurt anybody.  If you spot the trap, you can avoid the trap, or attempt to trigger it from a distance if it is protecting a chest or door.  If you know the trap is there, you could even buff yourself up and "disarm" it the hard way (by triggering it) -- I knew a barbarian once that used this particular technique routinely (he invested in a lot of bandages and healing pots).

An unbuffed "naked" level 15 trap setter will have 18 points in the set trap skill, plus dexterity modifier.  Assume at level 15 the trap setter has bumped their DEX to the 20-21 range (+5).  That gives a base skill of 23.

When a player sets a trap, the DC is the detect DC of the trap + the setters set trap skill only (there is no d20 roll on top of that).  Thus, for the powerful crafted fire trap in Syl's earlier example, the detect DC for spotting the trap would be 14+23=37.  A person searching for traps will roll d20 + search skill + any modifiers every round, so someone will a search skill of 17 or better will have a chance at spotting the trap, and thereby avoiding it.  A level 20 would likely have a search skill much higher than that.

Similarly, the disarm DC for that same trap is 20+set trap skill, so in this example the disarm DC would be 43.  Difficult to disarm for many players, but for a maxed out level 20 with a "take 20" it would be easily done.

In contrast, the non-crafted, default NWN traps are much harder to detect and disarm (which is one of the criticisms of the crafted traps we raised earlier in the thread).  Those DCs, as Syl pointed out for the default deadly fire trap, would be 22+skill to detect, and 36+skill to disarm.  In practical terms, if we use our "naked" trap setter as the baseline, the detect DC would be 45, and the disarm would be 59.  A level 20 character with 23 skill points in search and disarm trap would have a chance to spot the trap with some buffs (thereby having a chance to avoid it), although disarming would be quite difficult without at least +16 in buffs.  A "strong" trap, in contrast, would have a detect DC of 18+skill, and a disarm DC of 31+skill, which makes spotting the trap much easier, although still hard to disarm.  An "average" trap, by comparison, is essentially equivalent to the crafted powerful trap in Syl's example (14+skill, and 26+skill, respectively).

It should be noted that this is only for traps that are set by players.  The developers can set the trap DCs for anything they place in the module at whatever they want, so if there is a module-based trap that has an annoyingly high DC, that is not an imbalance in the game but a choice of the developer.

I should have been more specific, but I was in fact talking about default NWN traps. I think I showed in my previous post how a character at lvl 20 with gear, feats, synergy and buffs would only be able to hit a 62 (a bit higher I suppose if they had unusually high INT), so the fact that a -naked- lvl 15 could hit a 59 DC to disarm on the deadly traps serves to illustrate my point. Traps may be static, but that doesn't mean people aren't smart enough to put them in places that makes it impossible to avoid to continue on. Someone can't cast a trap on you, but someone can box you in if they know what they're doing-which that alone is fine. But when there's absolutely no mechanical way of someone, even the best of the best, disabling a deadly trap set by someone who is far from being the best at setting traps in any way other than running them over.. eh-do you honestly -not- think that's imbalanced? Plus, anyone who knows they can set a trap that can't be disarmed without tripping it could also stack these traps on top of each other.. So no.. I don't think that's balanced.

And I'm not worried about traps put in place by the dev team. Those, as hard as they get, are at least possible to disarm by -someone- in any case I've seen. Besides, like you said-if they feel it necessary to put in a trap that they know will never be disarmed in any way other than someone triggering it-fine. Can't really argue that with them anyway. But I feel like a better balance could be struck between what players are able to do in terms of setting traps and disarming them.

Edit: before I said that someone could hit 61 disable all things included, I was mistaken-that number is in fact 62 (assuming you have items that you can't normally get-it's 59 otherwise)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:36:08 AM by McNastea »
Tobias Loarca | Braern Delsaryn | Anwar

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Default traps VS crafted traps.
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2015, 09:37:52 AM »
Those that stack traps are a bit cruel and don't care... I was told by a DM to watch what I do with them. And I have spoke with a few others that have used traps as well to capture or kill people and they all said the same thing. Becareful when using them, because if you stake them someone will complain and even low levels will complain if they step on a deadly trap.

I personally would never and rather distaste seeing people stacking traps on top of one another...now I might trap the door and set a trap just on the otherside of said door.. but if you have enough search and spot you'll see them....

How ever in a honest opinion if your after someone, and you see a trap or a few... and they lay between you and the target...you try to disable them and you can't... It's then your choice if you continue to head to your target and trigger the traps... or not

But i can still see the otherside of the coin on how that can be unfair.

Also merry munchkin you explain thins with numbers MUCH better then I lol

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero