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Author Topic: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]  (Read 13273 times)

EndOfTheLine

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2015, 09:38:45 PM »
Bump?  :roll:

I really love the RP behind this class and I will play it regardless of how strong/weak it is. Here are some bits from my experience mechanically with the class thus far, maybe it'll help.

The short duration on the buffs are a hindrance, even though I use extended meta magic. This also isn't going to get any better as I level up because PM doesn't improve durations.
The summon doesn't last very long at all, maybe a few fights if he survives that long (Which he rarely does) and while he can handle the very weakest enemies, enemies like maddened corpses overcome his DR and quickly destroy him thanks to his terrible AC. It also can't be used in parties most of the time for fear of getting called out as a necromancer and smushed by angry paladins.
The AC bonus is great but the AB is of course, dismal.
A cleric of my level with undead domain would be so much better mechanically, with better durations on spells, better summons and better AB.. pretty much better in every way.  :(

I get by as a very tanky character but I kill things extremely slowly to the point where I'm going to get hit anyway because the fights last so long. The game keeps telling me that I should take on tougher challenges but I simply can't manage anything tougher than the first/second level of the starter crypt. As I say, I'm going to stick with it because I love the char/class but an improvement to it would be good. There are lots of options how to improve the class and what I would suggest has already been mentioned. So, this is just a thread bump to show that the change would be appreciated if/when the team gets around to it. :)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 09:50:58 PM by EndOfTheLine »

Kendric98

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2015, 10:24:56 PM »
Supposedly some classes were getting tweaked some in the next update im not sure if PM is one of them.

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Syl

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2015, 07:54:46 AM »
Quote
The game keeps telling me that I should take on tougher challenges but I simply can't manage anything tougher than the first/second level of the starter crypt.

Welcome to the world of Ravenloft lol where anything worth EXP has a very high rate to kill you.

As for the class itself I haven't really played one before, they never peeked my intrest [shrugs] but as Kendric said PMs might be getting an upgrade.. only time will tell now

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EndOfTheLine

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2015, 02:35:01 PM »
That sounds cool, Kendric.

Thx for the welcome Syl.
I don't wanna discuss it further. I have a terrible record interacting with opinionated people on forums. I just hope that the dev team read what I put and find it useful. As you say, time will tell. [shrugs]
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 02:37:13 PM by EndOfTheLine »

Arcibel

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2015, 06:23:28 AM »
In my opinion (I haven't read all post),the pale master level should count as caster level.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 07:05:59 AM by Arcibel »

Rodarn

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2015, 07:32:17 AM »
I would second the caster level plan, either that or give them a proper summon line.

Perdiot Olivene

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2017, 09:55:07 PM »
Thematic thread necromancy....

As per PnP, I've set it up so that pale master levels count when calculating caster level. As per 3E PnP (which is what we follow for pale masters), they progress at 1/2 their pale master level. It'll affect everything except (unfortunately) the spell resistance checks since that part is hardcoded.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2017, 10:49:32 PM »
 :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2017, 01:45:19 PM »
It'll affect everything except (unfortunately) the spell resistance checks since that part is hardcoded.

Could this be implemented via a feat? On the chat someone mentioned the spell penetration feat.

Could palemasters be granted an automatic feat that gives a bonus to level just like spell penetration does, but the feat starts out at +1 and then upgrades another +1 for each subsequent level of palemaster?

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2017, 04:42:44 PM »
Alas no.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 12:56:21 PM »
Wondering if PMs can maybe get a few more gimmes. As it stands right now, I think the game only considers Palemaster levels when it looks at what is going to be summoned, but Tome & Blood contradicts that.





With that in mind, any chance PMs could see access to their higher level undead summons?

Also, and I know this one's a long shot but how's about that undead vassal at 10?



Bonus points if we can summon them all at once.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:58:23 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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DreamlessWalker

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2018, 08:19:06 AM »
As far as i'm aware, to become relevant, PMs demand an unreasonable level sink for a mediocre reward, and don't really get to benifit from any of it's supposed strong points, I.E Summoning and Grafts, either because of being outclassed or because the mechanics behind said features are subpar.

Even after recieving a buff (which should be mentioned- because it means the state of the class is at least acknowledged), and later given the option to further strengthen their undead with another unreasonable feat-sink with the new undead feats, the class remains subpar because these boons do not really remedy the problems the class faces (A subpar caster that can become a wonderful tank [Although DDs and possibly Druids do it better] after an unreasonably long time sink with little to show for it).

PMs should, in my opinion, see these changes;

Summoning: Summon undead and Summon greater undead should take your total caster level into account, and not just your PM level. Furthermore, PMs should either recieve some of the new undead feats as part of their progression, or simply recieve a big flat boon to any of the summons they conjure.

This could also be remedied by simply altering the class' summoning tree and replacing it with existing undead monsters (I.E Huecuva), as NWN's base undead are amazingly bad (even after calculating the new undead feats).

Grafts: Are a cool feature, but are ultimately quite useless when you look at their DC and function (the minimal level of acquiring Paralyzing touch is 9, when it's DC of 10+[pale master leve]+CHA is below mediocre).

Therefor, allowing PMs to empower their Graft related features via feats / modifiers, and giving them more uses (I.E healing their summons) would help the class a lot.

And, since the last HAK updated contained homebrew feats, consider these optional feats selectable / part of the PM's progression tree:

Danse Macabre

Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Greater spell focus: Necromancy, 2 Pale master
Specifics: The Pale Master is able to animate more undead, and will always animate/summon/create an additional servant from a spell or ability [bar familiar].

Command obedience

Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Spell focus: Necromancy, 1 Pale Master
Specifics: Once per a day, the Pale Master is able to force an undead to roll a Will save or automatically become dominated as per the Control Undead spell.
DC: 10+Primary casting modifier + Caster level

Tailored Perfection

Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Greater spell focus: Necromancy, Pale master 10
Specifics: After extensively modifying his body, the Pale master’s physique reaches its prime.
Specifics; The character gains 10% movement speed, tires less quickly [added exhaustion threshold], and becomes completely immune to poison and disease.

Undead mastery

Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Greater spell focus: Necromancy, Pale master 5
Specifics: The pale master may assert his control over summoned undead for a longer duration.

Negative energy bolt

Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Pale master 2, Spell focus: Necromancy
Specifics: Two times per day a pale master may unleash a bolt of negative energy. If the ranged touch attack hits, it deals 1d6 (per caster level) points of negative energy to the target.

Grave feast

Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Pale master, Spell focus: Necromancy
Specifics: Any undead creature summoned by the pale master receives +3 vampiric regen.

Artisan of bone

Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Pale master, Spell focus: Necromancy
Specifics: The pale master has learned how to further empower his graft, adding X DC/Uses to any related graft ability.
 
Profane Ritual

Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Pale master 6, Spell focus: Necromancy
Specifics: By sacrificing his own lifeforce the pale master is able to summon an exceedingly powerful undead abomination (I.E Nightwalker, Doomguard, Greater Huecuva, etc).
The pale master receives 10d6 negative energy damage and must remain concentrated, lest he loses control of the undead.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 09:00:12 AM by DreamlessWalker »

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2018, 11:07:03 PM »
Wondering if PMs can maybe get a few more gimmes. As it stands right now, I think the game only considers Palemaster levels when it looks at what is going to be summoned, but Tome & Blood contradicts that.





With that in mind, any chance PMs could see access to their higher level undead summons?

I'll implement that in my next-ish update. For Summon Undead and Summon Greater Undead, it'll use the Pale Master's caster level, like for spellcasting, as per PnP. As an example a Pale Master 10/Wizard 10 would count as caster level 15.