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Author Topic: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]  (Read 13270 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« on: January 30, 2014, 06:10:26 PM »
Quote from: Bad Bud
This topic changed topic a long time ago.  Wink

You guys could create separate Blackguard and Pale Master topics if you like, and copy some of the main points over.

Here ya go, the Pale Master PRC as defined by the Libris Mortis:

I'll try and do the other PrCs if I can find the sources for them. Anyways, on the topic of pale masters... I think the cohort thing would be amazing but I imagine it's probably way too much work. If it's plausible, though, it'd be amazing. AMAZING. Also, summon durations suck, it'd be nice if we could get that boosted.









And here's the Undead Leadership feat that covers Undead Cohorts:

« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 06:56:16 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Troukk

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2014, 10:18:50 AM »
The real reason Pale Masters are really underpowered here in PoTM is because NWN doesn't support the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat, so their caster level is usually pretty bad. That means their spells are easy to resist, easy to dispell, and durations are crappy compared to their rest cycles.

I'd agree they need a boost somehow.
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Heretic

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2014, 12:39:43 PM »
@Baha: Ti was a noob, don't play him again.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2014, 12:41:54 PM »
The real reason Pale Masters are really underpowered here in PoTM is because NWN doesn't support the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat, so their caster level is usually pretty bad. That means their spells are easy to resist, easy to dispell, and durations are crappy compared to their rest cycles.

I'd agree they need a boost somehow.

See, I'm fine with them being a little weaker, though other servers have used spellhooking to make the game take PM levels into consideration for casting. It is possible to do it, apparently. The big thing I want is for their command over the undead to be properly supported, either through long durations or (if it's even viable and would be totally awesome), the undead cohort thing.


@Baha: Ti was a noob, don't play him again.

I'm playing Marianne, his Falkovnian niece, twice removed. Also, wtf. Ti was awesome. People loved to hate that guy.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:45:07 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Paragonville

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2014, 04:51:08 PM »
Bumping this due to recent discussions on improving classes.

Elfric

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 03:52:08 AM »
Give pale masters exotic feat to wield scythes. Then it's up to us to make scythe staffs!

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RedwizardD

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2014, 03:56:41 AM »
Gaining a Control Undead feat at the level indicated on that entry would actually be nice. Especially if they cannot have their summons last reasonable (rp wise) lengths of time.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:58:22 AM by RedwizardD »

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2014, 11:37:13 AM »
Gaining a Control Undead feat at the level indicated on that entry would actually be nice. Especially if they cannot have their summons last reasonable (rp wise) lengths of time.

It's 50/50. Swapping out the new summon with Control Undead is just changing one relatively useless summon for another. The problem with the Control Undead feat would be that it would last 30 seconds to a minute, tops, depending on the level of the Palemaster. :(

Maybe they should add something that makes palemasters neutral to the undead faction. :O
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Paragonville

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2014, 12:53:18 PM »
Gaining a Control Undead feat at the level indicated on that entry would actually be nice. Especially if they cannot have their summons last reasonable (rp wise) lengths of time.

It's 50/50. Swapping out the new summon with Control Undead is just changing one relatively useless summon for another. The problem with the Control Undead feat would be that it would last 30 seconds to a minute, tops, depending on the level of the Palemaster. :(

Maybe they should add something that makes palemasters neutral to the undead faction. :O

Or at least neutral to lower power undead.  They naturally attract the loving affection from zombies/skeletons/etc if I do recall.

RedwizardD

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2014, 02:51:19 PM »
Summon Undead at double duration would be a fair alternative as well. It is very weak summon, only useful at the lower levels except as a decoy. Inspite of role play value of the feat, especially the wraiths, they do not last long enough for many scenes that could benefit from them.

Nurlithion

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2014, 06:00:44 PM »
I would ask for maybe a purely roleplaying summon, like one that would last 24h but be lvl 1 or something, with all 10s on str, dex and con. Choice between skeleton or zombie, and it would be cool to just have a servant to walk around with.
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Sinful_Wishes

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2014, 06:50:26 PM »
Palemasters are pretty strong as is.. Its just a class that peaks in other situations besides just spellcasting.

Granted, I think the one thing they could use is Palemaster Levels let them use full caster level for necromancy spells.
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RedwizardD

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2014, 09:16:32 PM »
Choice between skeleton or zombie, and it would be cool to just have a servant to walk around with.

A ghost or shadow option would be nice too.

Nurlithion

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2014, 11:36:41 AM »
Yeah, maybe in the higher levels? I mean, the PrC doesn't really do much other than "I'm kinda tough to kill", so when I've thought about making one it was always because of the RP - in which case it would be much more fun to have a non-combat servant that one could keep around.
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Thundron

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2014, 10:13:03 PM »
The real reason Pale Masters are really underpowered here in PoTM is because NWN doesn't support the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat, so their caster level is usually pretty bad. That means their spells are easy to resist, easy to dispell, and durations are crappy compared to their rest cycles.

I'd agree they need a boost somehow.

caster level does not affect spell dc, there for their spells are not easily resisted, only short lasting.. and low numeric values. There for death spells are as good as ever.  Only bad thing about PM is their low dc on undeadhand abilities. I would like to see some stat modifier to them like Assassins have on death attack.

Exordium

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2014, 02:37:15 AM »
The real reason Pale Masters are really underpowered here in PoTM is because NWN doesn't support the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat, so their caster level is usually pretty bad. That means their spells are easy to resist, easy to dispell, and durations are crappy compared to their rest cycles.

I'd agree they need a boost somehow.

caster level does not affect spell dc, there for their spells are not easily resisted, only short lasting.. and low numeric values. There for death spells are as good as ever.

Spell Resistance and Dispel Checks are affected by caster level. In the latter, both by the caster of Dispel as well as the target spells of Dispel. Practiced Spellcaster could also increase stuff like GMW bonus.

Thundron

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2014, 05:34:21 AM »
The real reason Pale Masters are really underpowered here in PoTM is because NWN doesn't support the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat, so their caster level is usually pretty bad. That means their spells are easy to resist, easy to dispell, and durations are crappy compared to their rest cycles.

I'd agree they need a boost somehow.

caster level does not affect spell dc, there for their spells are not easily resisted, only short lasting.. and low numeric values. There for death spells are as good as ever.

Spell Resistance and Dispel Checks are affected by caster level. In the latter, both by the caster of Dispel as well as the target spells of Dispel. Practiced Spellcaster could also increase stuff like GMW bonus.

My bad. I was just thinking saving throws.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2014, 12:31:58 AM »
Biggity bump. I know you devs want to give PMs some love!
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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2014, 05:18:07 PM »
I remember the good ol' Vecna Days, becoming a pale master was definitely a group effort. In most cases however (Aside from group weapon masters and similar efforts) most requested classes often have personal trials and tribulations they must endure alone. The pale master on a much darker path may have to endure the changes to themselves in secret, without anyone's aid for the often dangerous procedures. I remember Ashin's first procedure was to mummify his skin through use of salt and another preservative, but only with the aid of a blue haired tiefling could he cut open and modify his being when the pain became unbearable (following the subsequent blackout and hours of unconsciousness in a tub of the mixture of salt, preserving powder and rose scented oil to preserve that pale barovian supple skin. "Da domn, I nu go out much. Witches everywhere"

That being stated, with things from sources shown before, perhaps what could be added to the player tools of a pale master at first level a sort of 'Summon Familiar' type deal that would summon a level 5 zombie at first level of pale master to act as 'assistant' to the pale master without aid of outside helpers, or a level 5 skeleton to those with outside aid. (Often it's stated within the PM app if aid will be sought and DMs would toggle one or the other). The reason behind the difference of helpers is simple, one requires more intelligent work and flesh articulation for precision instruments, and the other is for both equality and to purposes.  Both would run the familiar's corpse dropping script, but would require the spell (or spell like ability) of animate dead to resurrect, ensuring that the pale master seeks to learn the spell as all would, or continue far enough to learn the ability.

xXCrystal_Rose

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2014, 12:14:35 AM »
What would really go a long way to help them (if it isn't already implimented so) is for their class animate ability to be customized. At their maximum level 10 their undead servant is a crappy spectre. If they were given the ability to summon some different things it would go a long way. If editing the ability effect itself is too much a Palemaster (as part of ICly earning the class) could at level 1 roleplay the creation of an undead servant to bond with, be it a skeleton or a mummy or a ghost, and it is given to the character as a special power widget summon. Then at level 5 palemaster an opportunity to make their servant stronger or replace it with another one, and again at 10. Lets them get a nice tough undead guardian too since they lose out on spell progression.

If a hak update is planned I know there are systems floating around that do give spells to palemaster and blackguard and pnpify assassins to have their assassin spells and such too.

RedwizardD

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 12:32:26 AM »
What would really go a long way to help them (if it isn't already implimented so) is for their class animate ability to be customized. At their maximum level 10 their undead servant is a crappy spectre. If they were given the ability to summon some different things it would go a long way. If editing the ability effect itself is too much a Palemaster (as part of ICly earning the class) could at level 1 roleplay the creation of an undead servant to bond with, be it a skeleton or a mummy or a ghost, and it is given to the character as a special power widget summon. Then at level 5 palemaster an opportunity to make their servant stronger or replace it with another one, and again at 10. Lets them get a nice tough undead guardian too since they lose out on spell progression.

If a hak update is planned I know there are systems floating around that do give spells to palemaster and blackguard and pnpify assassins to have their assassin spells and such too.

Please note all undead summons (PM included) actually pull a creature two levels higher off their respective lists. The level 10 summon for a Pale Master is actually a Vampire.

That said a customizable level 1 companion that has duration more akin to a familiar would be wonderful.

xXCrystal_Rose

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 07:24:31 AM »
A vampire is significantly better! They can actually be pretty decent if buffed up, and PM class summons do last a very long time. Unless that was changed too.

RedwizardD

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2014, 08:47:13 AM »
Summon durations are comically bad in general. For Pale Masters you will be lucky if your summons last through a single fight.

Edit:This is kind of the reason a long duration non-combat summon for rp sounds like a good idea.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 08:49:58 AM by RedwizardD »

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2014, 12:17:20 PM »
While we're on the subject of Palemasters, how about the proper immunities to disease, stunning, poison, sleep, paralysis, death effects, and ability drain?  :D

And of course, I'm still gonna bother about the summons and their durations. It's the defining feature of the class. :(
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:28:28 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Re: Pale Masters [Balance Discussion]
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2014, 10:29:39 PM »
I will whole heartedly second all opinions expressed here, having played one they are simiply not a PRC any would choose and will likely go the way of the dinosaur unless changes are made.