Author Topic: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite  (Read 7533 times)

EO

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Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« on: January 11, 2010, 09:36:05 PM »
This is something I see often and I don't really understand where it comes from. I must admit it's a peeve of mine, but anyway.

Gundar = Duke Nharov Gundar. Former Darklord of Gundarak, he was the ruler of that land.
Gundarak = Domain that Barovia annexed after the Grand Conjunction and the death of Nharov Gundar.
Gundarakite = Person from Gundarak.
Luktar = Language spoken by Gundarakites.

I don't know why people call Gundarakites Gundars but it makes no sense really.

For more details, check here.

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 09:43:36 PM »
This is something I see often and I don't really understand where it comes from. I must admit it's a peeve of mine, but anyway.

Gundar = Duke Nharov Gundar. Former Darklord of Gundarak, he was the ruler of that land.
Gundarak = Domain that Barovia annexed after the Grand Conjunction and the death of Nharov Gundar.
Gundarakite = Person from Gundarak.
Luktar = Language spoken by Gundarakites.

I don't know why people call Gundarakites Gundars but it makes no sense really.

For more details, check here.

i purposely use "gundar" as a derogatory term to antagonize Gundarakites by not even respecting thier Cultural name.

but thats me  :twocents:

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2010, 09:46:33 PM »
We purposely call them Gundars to disrespect them.  Us true Barovian anyhow.  ;)
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EO

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2010, 09:51:25 PM »
We purposely call them Gundars to disrespect them.  Us true Barovian anyhow.  ;)

But that makes no sense, even as a racial slur. It's just shortening the name which means nothing.

As rebels, I remember that we had a rather decent range of insulting terms for Barovians, guards and boyars (Devil's Pricks, Devil's dogs, Barovian pigs, etc).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:53:05 PM by EO »

dutchy

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2010, 10:11:14 PM »
you want us to call you just E or  O ????? 
all slang and racial slurrs evolve difrantly so did this, no its not cannon but niether is a server made based on ravenloft on nwn.

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Antonus Taran

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2010, 10:14:28 PM »
I think it works out actually, it you look at a number of real-life racial slurs that carry a lot of weight, they are just shortened forms of the proper title.
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EO

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2010, 10:18:47 PM »
you want us to call you just E or  O ????? 
all slang and racial slurrs evolve difrantly so did this, no its not cannon but niether is a server made based on ravenloft on nwn.

To Gundarakite rebels, at least to the most extremist ones, being called a Gundar would be seen as a compliment and not an insult. Some rebels, especially the younger more extremist ones, idolize Duke Gundar (despite his awful track record as a leader) and actually call themselves Sons of Gundar. For an insult to make sense, it has to be insulting.

If you called me E or O, I wouldn't feel particularly insulted or degraded. I'd think you can't spell or are somewhat stupid, but it's not insulting in any way.

herkles

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2010, 10:49:10 PM »
what about coming up with some names for insuilts that we could call the gundarkites then? I don't exactly know what to call them other than vermin

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 12:01:26 AM »


I always figured those referring to Gundarakites as "Gundars" didn't know better or didn't want to bother spelling the word out. 

I agree with EO. Come up with something more creative.

Gundar-donkeys,
Gundar-mules,

Play with it.


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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 12:02:37 AM »
Just dont call them late for supper.

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 12:03:15 AM »
My main question would be, is it:

Barovian > Gundarakite > Outlander
Or
Barovian > Outlander > Gundarakite.

It seems to me it should be the first, but ~every~ Barovian I've ever seen in game treats outlanders better than Gundarakites.

Emomina

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 12:04:31 AM »
My main question would be, is it:

Barovian > Gundarakite > Outlander
Or
Barovian > Outlander > Gundarakite.

It seems to me it should be the first, but ~every~ Barovian I've ever seen in game treats outlanders better than Gundarakites.

damn good point.

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2010, 12:09:03 AM »
My main question would be, is it:

Barovian > Gundarakite > Outlander
Or
Barovian > Outlander > Gundarakite.

It seems to me it should be the first, but ~every~ Barovian I've ever seen in game treats outlanders better than Gundarakites.

Outlanders are feared and ignored (given harsh glares, cold shoulders and the likes), gundarakites are mostly seen as lower or second rate citizens. The relationship is different.

Iconoclast

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2010, 12:13:00 AM »
It could be one of those things that is hard to quantify and measure, as far as to which one the Barovians feel most strongly against.

I can imagine some Barovians drinking and slapping their knees laughing and joking about which one is worst; Gundarakites or those crazy outlanders.

If you think about it though, Barovians and Gundarakites share a lot in common culturally, and as part of the genre is based on the idea of fear of the unknown, of otherness, I'd say that Barovians would rather rub elbows with Gundarakites than most outlanders, depending on how outlandish they are. 

So....Barovian > Gundarakite > Typical Outlander
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 12:14:46 AM by Iconoclast »

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2010, 12:24:06 AM »
As Chomski, I didn't hate Gundarakites, specially in his farmer, debauchery drunken days. In fact, he saw a lot of affinities with second class crass-gundarakites, who like him, struggled in the day to day life. He hated the Red Vardo he had to deal with on a day to day basis at Tigan's rest; who he saw much like the outlanders as lazy bastards that didn't work. Their spines weren't bent from the labor of reaping the crops, working the plow, hauling the bales. They were bent from being the sniveling, swindling, pride-stomping cowards everyone had to deal with.

Later on in his misguided days of power, he became ugly, and rebel-hating; not out of choice, but necessity, but not gundarakite hating. I think I played memorable scenes with the rebel players where those subjects were touched through narrative as well, good times.

I think you can approach things on a lot of angles, the more you allow for your characters to have weaknesses and quirks related to you background, and not being invincible or black and white from the outset, the more you can mold these things for you to have a good outlook on them.



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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2010, 02:34:07 AM »
There are several layers to the Barovian-Gundarakite relationship. To start with, those of Gundarak that remember the Duke live mostly in resignation under the Count, accepting their place in society. The Duke showed more outright cruelty to them. Barovians themselves live in fear of Strahd, and much like Gundarakites, whisper of him being the Devil Strahd. They are two people that have been forced to co-exist under Strahd's rule. They also make up a substantial portion of the working poor. There are more of them than there are Outlanders. The game world just presents a twisted picture where Gundarakites are the minority, and 95% of them have been rebels. In reality, there are many peaceful Gundarakites and they would likely hold their own resentment for the angry youth movement that is the rebellion. Our rebels, when the faction existed, was more like an organized ethnic mafia. We didn't associate with non-rebel Gundarakites because there weren't any around to do so with. Our world consisted of barovians, the people who stole our land, and the devil himself. Outlanders had little to nothing to do with what was an internal conflict. We spent literally years having almost no contact with outlanders. We didn't go into the outskirts to move plots. We, the players that didn't have alts, literally had no idea what went on in that world. I imagine for Barovians it is much the same.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 02:36:15 AM by shadymerchant »

dutchy

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2010, 10:38:55 AM »
there is also another problem and that's the problem that most haven't reed the books.

as myself i first played my dwarf  and trough that cause he was rebellious i got into contact with the guard alt and they where barovians so i gotten into contact with the culture, by the time i got permad i learned the basics and made my own barovian i think i needed a month or more to be up to date what and what not to do as a barovian.

never had to much contact with say gundarekites or other factions of the game even as guard so i needed to read it on the forum to take in the info i needed for my character.

allot of ppl make a barovian and don't know much or any about it, its cause alot that happends are events to scare ppl or bigger plots about troubles that go against the barovian empire (example would be leo dilisnya nice plot btw)  but there aren't many plots about villagers hanging or chasing a gunderikite or a random hanging of a gundar having a weapon on him or barovian festivals.

well i suppose what i am trying to say is we get the feeling of the server but not the comunity or racial feeling of the server, maybe not is a big word maybe less would fit better.

and because of that mistakes get made like Ladul instead of iadul  or gundar instead of gundar pig gundar scum  gundar lowlife.
cause we simply do not have the mhhh rolemodels would be a way to describe it.
all we have is some forum text       for those that haven't Reed the books.

ps/ used the spell check for a change  wooot

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2010, 12:40:37 PM »
Here's a example of a barovian-gundarakite scene I was once involved with

Our rebel PC's were in the market place sometime after dark, so it was empty. I decided, on a whim, to look in one of the merchant's barrels to see what was in there. Just as I did this the guard Termas walked into view. He immediately began to question why my PC was looking into someone elses stuff. Being a Gundarakite, not to mention a rebel, we were certainly alarmed and in a bad position. After much crying that we were merely on a run for the Ladies Rest (where we worked as table servers) he allowed us to go on our way.

our way to blowing up the gates, guard barracks, and robbing the bank. tee hee.

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 08:32:27 AM »
IG it's Barovian > Outlander > Gundarakite.  Believe me as someone who plays a gundarakite, we're the lowest on the totem pole.


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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2010, 07:01:21 PM »
WARNING: Completly off topic.

Why does the name of this threads topic bring Thunder Cats to mind?

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Emomina

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2010, 07:44:50 PM »
IG it's Barovian > Outlander > Gundarakite.  Believe me as someone who plays a gundarakite, we're the lowest on the totem pole.

I believe that, but it has always baffled me why a Darkonese, or Dementlieuse of someone from beyond the mists would so easily identify a Gundarakite, and why they would even care.  Always seen outlanders, with no horse in the race per se, badger Gundarakites like they are Barovians and this is one of contributing factors to the "Barovian > Outlander > Gundarakite".   Honestly, as a Barovian, the Gundarakites are a known quality with a much better understanding of what they are and what they can do PLUS their appearance is similar, by comparison to outlanders, they would be considerably less feared.

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2010, 08:48:30 PM »
IG it's Barovian > Outlander > Gundarakite.  Believe me as someone who plays a gundarakite, we're the lowest on the totem pole.

I believe that, but it has always baffled me why a Darkonese, or Dementlieuse of someone from beyond the mists would so easily identify a Gundarakite, and why they would even care.  Always seen outlanders, with no horse in the race per se, badger Gundarakites like they are Barovians and this is one of contributing factors to the "Barovian > Outlander > Gundarakite".   Honestly, as a Barovian, the Gundarakites are a known quality with a much better understanding of what they are and what they can do PLUS their appearance is similar, by comparison to outlanders, they would be considerably less feared.
I think you're underestimating the irrationality of ethnic strife. Of course it doesn't make sense--xenophobia is an irrational fear, after all.


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Emomina

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2010, 09:02:27 PM »
yeah. I guess I am underestimating it  :D never underestimate the irrational.  :lol:  it can not be rationalized

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2010, 02:17:55 AM »
I believe Barovians tend to hate on Gundarakites more then outlanders because of all of the stuff that's happened in the server so far, with the rebel faction and how much strife they've caused the poor Barovians and Guards.

Sort of like the drow. I don't /think/ they were "Kill on sight" with the Guards/barovians until the blue water massacre and such. If that never would have happened, along with a few other things, I believe Drow would just be treated like elves are now.

I think it's sort of neat.

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Re: Gundar, Gundarak and Gundarakite
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2010, 02:27:09 AM »
Agreed Peasant.

I think that each Barovian PC's opinion should be theirs to make. Let the player take in the cannon attitude, mix in their personal experiences, and play it as they see fit. I just find it a little insulting to be told how my PC should feel. Due to his experiences he will be much much harder of Gundars, in my case.

It's totally copacetic to discuss what is cannon, and what the general attitude is. However PCs have a far more intricate story and development than NPCs and should be allowed to adapt, and stray away from certain stereotypical behavior if that is where the story leads them.

To Gundarakite rebels, at least to the most extremist ones, being called a Gundar would be seen as a compliment and not an insult. Some rebels, especially the younger more extremist ones, idolize Duke Gundar (despite his awful track record as a leader) and actually call themselves Sons of Gundar. For an insult to make sense, it has to be insulting.

So one side uses it an an insult the other takes a since of pride in the word?  Hm, remind you of any other examples of racial slurs?

I'm gonna agree with Fürst Johannes-Vokan II, here. Almost every example of racial slurs are just a shortening of the word. And people have a natural inclination to abbreviate things. Gundarakite is a mouth full. "Gundar" comes very naturally out of that. Could start calling them "Kite(s)". I actually kind of like the sound of that. ;)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 02:31:31 AM by Roose »

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