Author Topic: Spells - Gate  (Read 17766 times)

Olywynn

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2015, 02:00:15 PM »
If I recall, any summoning spell that summons a sentient being is evil in Ravenloft.  If you summon anything, ICily, they can not leave.  They are stuck in Ravenloft just like you.

So that celestial, slaad, or demon/devil you summoned isn't going to be very happy with you when it tries to leave.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2015, 02:18:39 PM »
On the note of a summon not being able to leave, is that something the caster would understand icly?

Mechanically they go away when the spells duration is up. It'd be pretty neat if instead of going away the caster lost control of them, IMO.



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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2015, 02:20:27 PM »
LOL Miuo it summons only a demon here in ravenloft.. that's pretty evil :P

I know, recently read the info on the spell and it isnt supposed to be balor specific. Is why i necro'ed the thread to see if the other options based off alignment were still a possibility. Or if it would give you a choice of what to summons. Since the spell isnt initially evil, the mechanics just only allow you a single option that happens to be evil which is a massive waste of the already limited spells at the option.

For a cleric our options are,

Energy drain
Gate
Implosion
Storm of vengeance
Summon creature IX
Undeath's eternal foe

Not terribly alot of options, and for a good caster thats even fewer options. . And after investing so much time in achieving such a level and being dedicated to a single class it seems sucky to loose out on such a spell because the vanilla mechanics were never given alternative options :(

Prodding this, is this still something that might become a option here? Would really like to see such, as Gate isn't necessarily a evil spell. .  But its single option makes it kinda seem pretty shady for even the most noble and good of hearts :3

Gate is an evil spell under our current rules, and unless that gets changed, casting it is an inherently evil act.

Which is what im trying to get changed, to get more options so that the spell isnt "evil" due to the default single option it allows.

If I recall, any summoning spell that summons a sentient being is evil in Ravenloft.  If you summon anything, ICily, they can not leave.  They are stuck in Ravenloft just like you.

So that celestial, slaad, or demon/devil you summoned isn't going to be very happy with you when it tries to leave.

Well for the moment, Planar ally and such don't seem counted as being to evil or evil at all  based on whats said below. However gate spell seems listed as evil because its only option (presently) is to summon a evil powerful demon and have it serve you. Which is pretty questionable and should adjust a good persons alignment. If they used the gate spell to bring forth something fitting to their alignment would view it as being evil, and from what i read on the spell the balor isn't supposed to be the only outcome of the spell :3

As per the Ravenloft core rulebooks (Black Box, Red Box, DoD, 3rd Ed. Core Rulebook) these spells automatically call for DP checks:

Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Circle of Death
Circle of Doom
Contagion
Control Undead
Create Greater Undead
Create Undead
Destruction
Energy Drain
Enervation
Finger of Death
Gate
Ghoul Touch
Harm
Horrid Wilting
Raise Dead
Resurrection
Slay Living
Summon Shadow
Unholy Aura
Vampiric Touch
Wail of the Banshee


To evoke the interest of the DPs in POTM there is laid a much greater weight on the story and narrative for all of these spells. The weight is just greater though - not absolute.

Miuo

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2015, 02:22:59 PM »
On the note of a summon not being able to leave, is that something the caster would understand icly?

Mechanically they go away when the spells duration is up. It'd be pretty neat if instead of going away the caster lost control of them, IMO.


Not sure. . . People have said that to my char before but shes not entirely sure about such since they vanish leaving no sign behind they were ever there. As far as she can grasp they are "gone", they are no longer here in any sort of physical sense.

Would be interested to know if it is possible to call forth the same summon over and over though ratehr then trapping a new one every time the spell is used, summon the same companion over and over again and form a connection of sorts with it.

Theorem Of Neutrality

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2015, 02:30:07 PM »
If I recall, any summoning spell that summons a sentient being is evil in Ravenloft.  If you summon anything, ICily, they can not leave.  They are stuck in Ravenloft just like you.

So that celestial, slaad, or demon/devil you summoned isn't going to be very happy with you when it tries to leave.

The only spell I can think of off-hand that calls in new Outsiders is Gate. Everything else just calls them from somewhere else on the Demiplane.

To be honest with you, Gate shouldn't even work since it relies on the Astral Plane to function. It's impossible to summon things from the Outer Planes when in the Ethereal, unless you had a spellkey or something I guess. But I doubt those are just raining from the sky in the Demiplane.
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Feronius

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2015, 02:32:42 PM »
On the note of a summon not being able to leave, is that something the caster would understand icly?

Mechanically they go away when the spells duration is up. It'd be pretty neat if instead of going away the caster lost control of them, IMO.

I'm not sure if this is possible or easy to accomplish, but it could be interesting if it played something like a death animation or running off and fading into the distance, instead of the default way they are unsummoned.

Currently whenever I roleplay this I just emote the summon or familiar leaving the scene. Or I assume they are summoned away to another place within Ravenloft.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2015, 12:10:41 PM »
On the note of a summon not being able to leave, is that something the caster would understand icly?

Mechanically they go away when the spells duration is up. It'd be pretty neat if instead of going away the caster lost control of them, IMO.


I would totally pee myself with excitement if we could do this!

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2015, 12:47:19 PM »
If the Balor dies before he is unsummon, is it still considered for a DP check? Since the Balor isn't running wild in the Core?

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2015, 12:49:06 PM »
It is the act of bringing a Balor somewhere that forces such a check. Not the possibility of the Balor doing anything.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2015, 08:25:21 PM »
Powerful fiends like a balor don't die just by taking them down to 0 HP in the Demiplane of Dread; you have to destroy their phylactery as well, just like you would a lich.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2015, 09:04:13 PM »
Powerful fiends like a balor don't die just by taking them down to 0 HP in the Demiplane of Dread; you have to destroy their phylactery as well, just like you would a lich.

I didn't know fiends had phylacteries! That's neat. Curious, if a fiend was taken to the demiplane of dread would their phylactery be taken along with them or would they become for all intents and purposes immortal, since no one would be able to go get theyir phylactery to destroy it? Unless of course someone from another plane just happened upon and destroyed it... but as far as being confined to the demiplane I mean.
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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2015, 10:16:09 PM »
Powerful fiends like a balor don't die just by taking them down to 0 HP in the Demiplane of Dread; you have to destroy their phylactery as well, just like you would a lich.

I don't know what the more modern D&D rules are about demons and devils, but classically my old Monster Manual describes demons thusly: "Demons are able to move from their own plane into those of Tarterus, Hades, or Pandemonium or roam the astral plane.  However, they cannot enter the material plane without aid (conjurations, gate, or by name speaking or similar means). . . . Demons of type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat; their material form being removed from their use, the demon in question is thereby forced back to the plane from whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth again.  However, if demons are encountered on their own plane, they can be slain."

The MM also discusses demon amulets:  "Demon lords and princes maintain their vital essences in small containers -- their souls, so to speak, are thus at once protected and yet vulnerable if some enterprising character should gain the amulet."

The MM has similar entries for devils. I guess it is open to interpretation as to whether a balor qualifies as high ranking enough to have a demon amulet (i.e. phylactery).  Either way, a demon's or devil's physical form can be destroyed, but their essence goes back to the abyss (or hell, in the case of devils).  In effect, in the old days summoning a demon or devil summons an avatar, so they would not really be trapped in a place like the Demiplane of Dread.


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Olywynn

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2015, 09:37:33 AM »
Powerful fiends like a balor don't die just by taking them down to 0 HP in the Demiplane of Dread; you have to destroy their phylactery as well, just like you would a lich.

I don't know what the more modern D&D rules are about demons and devils, but classically my old Monster Manual describes demons thusly: "Demons are able to move from their own plane into those of Tarterus, Hades, or Pandemonium or roam the astral plane.  However, they cannot enter the material plane without aid (conjurations, gate, or by name speaking or similar means). . . . Demons of type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat; their material form being removed from their use, the demon in question is thereby forced back to the plane from whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth again.  However, if demons are encountered on their own plane, they can be slain."

The MM also discusses demon amulets:  "Demon lords and princes maintain their vital essences in small containers -- their souls, so to speak, are thus at once protected and yet vulnerable if some enterprising character should gain the amulet."

The MM has similar entries for devils. I guess it is open to interpretation as to whether a balor qualifies as high ranking enough to have a demon amulet (i.e. phylactery).  Either way, a demon's or devil's physical form can be destroyed, but their essence goes back to the abyss (or hell, in the case of devils).  In effect, in the old days summoning a demon or devil summons an avatar, so they would not really be trapped in a place like the Demiplane of Dread.

The Demiplane of Dread works differently from any other plane.  The act of summoning yanks the other from their home plane, and from then on, they are stuck in Ravenloft.  They don't have the limitations of mortals, being outsiders.  Once they are here, they can only leave via other means, similar to how a mortal might escape.

Unlike a mortal, an outsider has a reality wrinkle (at least initially.)  This is an area around their person that allows them to traverse the Demiplane without limit.  They can pass through borders, closed or not.  Darklords can't detect them specifically, but they can detect that "blank" spot in their domain.  So they may or may not investigate.  These wrinkles, however, are dangerous.  They're almost like a "glitch" in the system, and can have random effects on their environment.

One example is the celestial who runs the Carnival.  Her wrinkle is called the Twisting.  Anyone who stays for a long period in the Carnival will slowly mutate.  She has learned to be able to concentrate this, however, and use it to punish those who harm her or the Carnival, turning them into horrible monsters.  Match their inside with their outside.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2015, 11:54:13 AM »
 The act of summoning yanks

Off topic a bit, but I first misread this as to mean summoning Americans.  :lol:

Olywynn

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2015, 11:56:29 AM »
 The act of summoning yanks

Off topic a bit, but I first misread this as to mean summoning Americans.  :lol:


Miuo

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2017, 09:22:06 PM »
I actually had an idea to alter Gate to summon other creatures in addition to Balors--Pit Fiends, Ultroloths, Solars, Secundus Modrons, and so on. I believe I put it on hold til after the 1.69 patch, so I guess I can revisit the idea now.

Any further consideration on this?

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2017, 05:55:11 AM »
Gate should be updated to summon an appropriate creature according to alignment I think as well yes..
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Alan Hunter

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2017, 11:04:04 AM »
I actually had an idea to alter Gate to summon other creatures in addition to Balors--Pit Fiends, Ultroloths, Solars, Secundus Modrons, and so on. I believe I put it on hold til after the 1.69 patch, so I guess I can revisit the idea now.

Any further consideration on this?

Actually hon there is a 1.69 spell out there that alters Gate and Banishment already by PCR and the guys who made the Alt Druid form script. The New Gate for 1.69 would allow you to summon True Balor (Not our dinky one with this one exploding on death like hellball like balors are supposed too), Succubus, Tanari, Vrock Commando, Merlith, Imp Brigade (Summons 1-5 variant imps as henchmen], and Balor variants [smoke, electric, cold, etc which are the dinky version]. The other Spell alt Summon Planar gave variants based on Alignment but I barely remember all the summons but here goes {Good Align: Deva, Celestial, Aasmir, and Guardian), (Neutral: Tiefling, Slaad, Venarite<some planar being>, Black Rose, and Mechanus Guardian <Robot golem?>), (Evil: Pit Fiend, Fey'Rai, Shadow Lord, X'athim, Phantasmal Beast, and Shadow Mastiff 1-2)

Seens those about wouldn't be hard to add them but POTM uses custom spells and creatures so I'm not certain if they would work appropriately. It be something the Developers would need to pick apart.
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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2017, 11:38:26 AM »
I actually had an idea to alter Gate to summon other creatures in addition to Balors--Pit Fiends, Ultroloths, Solars, Secundus Modrons, and so on. I believe I put it on hold til after the 1.69 patch, so I guess I can revisit the idea now.

Any further consideration on this?

Actually hon there is a 1.69 spell out there that alters Gate and Banishment already by PCR and the guys who made the Alt Druid form script. The New Gate for 1.69 would allow you to summon True Balor (Not our dinky one with this one exploding on death like hellball like balors are supposed too), Succubus, Tanari, Vrock Commando, Merlith, Imp Brigade (Summons 1-5 variant imps as henchmen], and Balor variants [smoke, electric, cold, etc which are the dinky version]. The other Spell alt Summon Planar gave variants based on Alignment but I barely remember all the summons but here goes {Good Align: Deva, Celestial, Aasmir, and Guardian), (Neutral: Tiefling, Slaad, Venarite<some planar being>, Black Rose, and Mechanus Guardian <Robot golem?>), (Evil: Pit Fiend, Fey'Rai, Shadow Lord, X'athim, Phantasmal Beast, and Shadow Mastiff 1-2)

Seens those about wouldn't be hard to add them but POTM uses custom spells and creatures so I'm not certain if they would work appropriately. It be something the Developers would need to pick apart.

That's the idea. I would actually like to see similar options based on alignment extended to summoning spells at every level, not just Gate. However, that would be a significant undertaking.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2017, 12:05:16 PM »
As a point of interest.
Another server I have played on handled expanded summons quite well I think.
There were a number of Summoning Books available as loot drops, covering Animals, Elementals, Undead, Tana'ri, Baatezu and Celestials.
Using a book opened a conversation, in which the user selected the spell to alter (Summon Creature I-IX, Create Undead, Planar Binding, Gate). Each spell had only one alternate option, flavoured by the theme of the book. The books could be used indefinitely.

As a example, Gate could be changed to summon a Pit Fiend, Balor, Solar, Ancient Elemental or Demilich.
This opened up a great deal of RP potential as the Summon could be tailored to fit a particular scene/event. In terms of dungeoning only the same few were used consistently (those with buffable weapons / DR).

Another method I have seen is 'Summon Tokens'. These are single-use consumables which change a specific summon spell to a specific creature, I think permanently. If you wanted to change summon, you have to find and use another Summon Token.


Obviously all those choices took up palette space, but I do think the Summon Tome was an elegant solution to a distinct lack of choice in vanilla NWN.
I would not advocate such an extensive array of choice, as summons are meant to be restricted in Ravenloft, but you could, say, make available 3-4 Tomes which offer a selection of Ravenloft-friendly creatures to summon, like Dread Treants, Mist Horrors, Wraiths, Fire Minions etc.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2017, 11:31:21 PM »
Powerful fiends like a balor don't die just by taking them down to 0 HP in the Demiplane of Dread; you have to destroy their phylactery as well, just like you would a lich.

I don't know what the more modern D&D rules are about demons and devils, but classically my old Monster Manual describes demons thusly: "Demons are able to move from their own plane into those of Tarterus, Hades, or Pandemonium or roam the astral plane.  However, they cannot enter the material plane without aid (conjurations, gate, or by name speaking or similar means). . . . Demons of type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat; their material form being removed from their use, the demon in question is thereby forced back to the plane from whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth again.  However, if demons are encountered on their own plane, they can be slain."

The MM also discusses demon amulets:  "Demon lords and princes maintain their vital essences in small containers -- their souls, so to speak, are thus at once protected and yet vulnerable if some enterprising character should gain the amulet."

The MM has similar entries for devils. I guess it is open to interpretation as to whether a balor qualifies as high ranking enough to have a demon amulet (i.e. phylactery).  Either way, a demon's or devil's physical form can be destroyed, but their essence goes back to the abyss (or hell, in the case of devils).  In effect, in the old days summoning a demon or devil summons an avatar, so they would not really be trapped in a place like the Demiplane of Dread.

The Demiplane of Dread works differently from any other plane.  The act of summoning yanks the other from their home plane, and from then on, they are stuck in Ravenloft.  They don't have the limitations of mortals, being outsiders.  Once they are here, they can only leave via other means, similar to how a mortal might escape.

Unlike a mortal, an outsider has a reality wrinkle (at least initially.)  This is an area around their person that allows them to traverse the Demiplane without limit.  They can pass through borders, closed or not.  Darklords can't detect them specifically, but they can detect that "blank" spot in their domain.  So they may or may not investigate.  These wrinkles, however, are dangerous.  They're almost like a "glitch" in the system, and can have random effects on their environment.

One example is the celestial who runs the Carnival.  Her wrinkle is called the Twisting.  Anyone who stays for a long period in the Carnival will slowly mutate.  She has learned to be able to concentrate this, however, and use it to punish those who harm her or the Carnival, turning them into horrible monsters.  Match their inside with their outside.

So a 20th level monk is an outsider, would that mean they could transverse the most without limitations? Is their a mechanic for this or would it just have to be rped
ped?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 03:30:04 AM by Gilad Abrams »

DM Erebus

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2017, 01:27:23 AM »
No. Monks don't get Reality Wrinkles.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2017, 01:38:47 AM »
It's because monks are native outsiders not true ones. They also don't get a phylactory



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Gilad Abrams

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2017, 03:34:02 AM »
What's the source on that? I've never read anything about that in fact what I had read seemed to imply the bubble applied to monks. Not the phylactery though.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2017, 08:32:53 AM »
No. Monks don't get Reality Wrinkles.

I don't know how much of this is still the way POTM is played, but at one time they did. See here:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=5442.msg52664#msg52664

And farther down:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=5442.msg52674#msg52674
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