Author Topic: Spells - Gate  (Read 17761 times)

engelfire

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Spells - Gate
« on: August 24, 2008, 11:31:22 PM »
hey guys and gals !

i dunno if this is the right forum for this, but delph feel free to move it if needed


so this thread is about 9th level spell, the gate.

i was wondering that would it be too big task to tweak the spell bit ? what i mean is, that when you cast it, it summons balor everytime.


could it be modded so that it would summon some higher being thats dependant on casters aligment, like in similar fashion to planar binding spells ? its silly that when good aligned caster uses planar bindings she /he summons celestial beings to aid in the task and then when she casts gate, it brings balor hehe. though i admit there is monster summon 9 there right so good aligned casters could got with that but still...


granted not many mages get that far to cast lv9 spells but still it could be a nice change.

hehe imagine a good mage and evil mage clash, both summon higher beings to battle, other with celestial and other with abyssal... how epic is that :D
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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2008, 11:41:28 PM »
In all honesty though, Gate is like the forbidden spell (DMs Dark Power this spell).  You're not calling upon an ally like the 3 planar ally spells.  You're pulling out the strongest beast the Abyss has to offer into the field.  And without having protection vs. evil, the Balor is actually hostile to the summoner, becuase it's not tamed.  By having PfE casted, the demon recognizes its master and fights by his side.  So... by making the summon based on the alignment would totally change the spell itself.  You'd have to call it "Greater Greater Planar Ally" with that proposal.  Gate's fine the way it is.  I like how it's like the mother of all forbidden spells, thus making it something you'd never want to cast in a DM event unless it's your only way to escape death.

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2008, 11:48:35 PM »
The spell isn't supposed to call a Balor, though.  It's supposed to call a creature of your choosing to do your bidding, including elementals if desired.  It's yet another spell that Bioware butchered the implementation of.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 12:10:54 AM »
Tell me about it. My cleric can't use any 9 level spells. Energy Drain is too evil, Summon Creature IX is a no-no since elementals are "monsters", even though I doubt the Ezrites are not smart enough to tell a monster from the Legions from an elemental; Implosion is also too evil, Storm of Vengence I could request from Ezra, same goes for Undeath's Ethernal Foe... but Gate summons a balor everytime. Not even a neutral or good aligned planar ally, but a balor!

I mean, most lvl 9 clerical spells in NWN cater to the Evil casters (energy drain, imploson, gate), it would be nice to have Gate summon anything else other than a balor. When I used to summon planar allies, they were agents of Ezra... can't pull that off with a balor unless I decide to ignore alignment (which I won't). It just gives me another blessing I can't request. I imagine the MLers are more or less in the same state.

Also, Ric,  Gate is DP worthy only if you conjure up an evil creature. If you know the true name of an outsider within Ravenloft, you can call it and demand a service, and if you call it from another plane, it's one-way only, as per the Ravenloft rulebook. So if there's an elemental or any good/neutral/evil outsider whose true name you know, you could conjure it up. And not have it be a balor everytime. If it can be scripted to pull in an good/neutral outsider (something DP worthy too, since your imprisoning an outsider into Ravenloft knowingly) and have you cast Holy Aura or some other protective spell, I'm all for it.

And as a little side-note, PnPwise, these are the DP worthy spells. Gate is listed there, but it's circumstancial, but the way NWN handles Gate, it is DP worthy: (Not a complete list, but you can see why most casters in our game world would rarely reach high levels since most spells used warrent DP checks and you'd be darklord or heavily cursed by level 15):
Spoiler: show
Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Blasphemy, Chill Touch, Circle of Death, Circle of Doom, Contagion, Control Undead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, Curse Water, Death Knell, Desecrate, Destruction, Enervation, Energy Drain, Finger of Death, Gate (circumstancial), Ghoul Touch, Harm, Horrid Writhing, Inflict Wounds, Insanity, Limited Wish (circumstancial), Magic Jar, Modify Memory (circumstancial), Nightmare, Raise Dead, Reincarnate, Resurrection*, Slay Living, Soul Bind, Speak with Dead, Spectral Hand, True Resurrection*, Unhallow, Unholy Aura, Unholy blight, Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee, Wish (circumstancial)

(*Statistically, all NPC priests would be so DPed by now)


Oh, and moving this to gameplay balance.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 12:16:34 AM by Delphinidae »


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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 12:57:46 AM »
I actually had an idea to alter Gate to summon other creatures in addition to Balors--Pit Fiends, Ultroloths, Solars, Secundus Modrons, and so on. I believe I put it on hold til after the 1.69 patch, so I guess I can revisit the idea now.

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Iconoclast

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 01:12:08 AM »
Ooo.....so it is possible to revise the Gate spell.   8)   What might a good aligned cleric summon via the Gate?

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 01:20:51 AM »
Astral Deva, Planetar, Solar, etc. However, pulling a pure being of good like that into the Demiplane of Dread is entirely DP Worthy in my opinion, more so than a being of pure evil.

DM Macabre

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 01:27:15 AM »
Agreed. The being forced into the demiplane isn't able to leave again. Most beings are not very happy about that...

Iconoclast

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 01:35:55 AM »
I don't know if a character, such as one born and raised in the demiplane, would know that what they summoned can't escape, until they've gained that experience. 

When dealing with the Dark Powers, it should hinge a great deal upon intentionality and morality, not just the outcome of a choice in itself.  If a good aligned character had no idea the being would be trapped, it would be a hard lesson to learn.  I don't think any of the Ezrites feel trapped.  If Nell accidently "escaped," she'd be looking for the portal home. 


If a character knew that the being summoned would be trapped, but knowing that did it anyway, then a possible dp check. 

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 01:37:47 AM »
Except of course to have a Solar in Ravenloft would be a huge asset. Their Reality Wrinkle would pretty much = instant strahd pwnification. You could mop out the Dark Lords in a week.

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Iconoclast

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 01:41:17 AM »
Yeah, I don't know enough about the Solar or good aligned beings that might be summoned, by who knows, maybe once they realized they were trapped in the demiplane, they would sympathize with everyone else trapped, and want to help solve the problem, such as the role of a good aligned hero.

DM Macabre

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2008, 01:48:32 AM »
The call for the DPs is not always based on intentionality. In POTM this is true for most things, though not always. Some spells just evoke the interest of the DPs by their very nature. Sometimes the DPs are interested even if the motives of a caster are truly good. For example: slaying an evil foe with necromantic spells or calling some undead back to life with true resurrection. Basically spells that invoke necromantic or summoning powers are calling for DPs almost always. The motives are secondary with that. It is the attempt to shape necromantic or summoning powers or spells which deal with life and death, which calls for them.

Now the question could arise what is with the NPC priests and their constant casting of "raise dead". In Ravenloft it would normally cause them to roll for DPs always. In POTM we lay a greater weight on intentionality as Iconoclast stated. Though, as written above, this is not always the case.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2008, 01:49:06 AM »
Well same thing for the summoned allies like the Archon, they are BASICLY trapped in Ravenloft.

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boompowclash

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2008, 01:54:08 AM »
Except of course to have a Solar in Ravenloft would be a huge asset. Their Reality Wrinkle would pretty much = instant strahd pwnification. You could mop out the Dark Lords in a week.

I seem to recall that the Reality Wrinkles of Good divine beings actually unravels Ravenlofts Demiplanar fabric.  It's unstable!

Iconoclast

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2008, 02:10:43 AM »
A great deal will depend on the narrative.  For example, an Ezrite, such as Nell, doesn't have the power to bring the dead back to life.  She is always quick to point out, that she can pray, but it is up to fate (Grand Scheme) and her divine power, Ezra, to determine the outcome.   

So if an Anchorite is growing in wisdom and experience, and along the way learns that Ezra, via a summoning ritual, will grant and send an ally, I don't see how a character would automatically merit a dp check due to the idea and argument that summons automatically warrents a dp check. 

But the themes of the gothic and the morality-play that I'm more familiar with, are those of literature and tradition, as opposed to what the authors of the ravenloft material may have come up with for their idea of how morality and dp checks ought to be handled.  Does it state in canon material that no matter what any cleric summoning warrents a dp check?

On the role of motives, I never suggested that the ends justify the means.  That is why you don't find most of the Anchorites using many of their prayer options.  I was trying to point out that the outcome alone shouldn't be the measure or determining factor in deciding if a dp check is called for.  You might play the cards dealt to you as wisely as possible, but still not win the hand. 





« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 02:16:09 AM by Iconoclast »

DM Macabre

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2008, 02:30:01 AM »
As per the Ravenloft core rulebooks (Black Box, Red Box, DoD, 3rd Ed. Core Rulebook) these spells automatically call for DP checks:

Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Circle of Death
Circle of Doom
Contagion
Control Undead
Create Greater Undead
Create Undead
Destruction
Energy Drain
Enervation
Finger of Death
Gate
Ghoul Touch
Harm
Horrid Wilting
Raise Dead
Resurrection
Slay Living
Summon Shadow
Unholy Aura
Vampiric Touch
Wail of the Banshee


To evoke the interest of the DPs in POTM there is laid a much greater weight on the story and narrative for all of these spells. The weight is just greater though - not absolute.

Inviktus

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2008, 02:35:10 AM »
A sample simple alignment based gate spell:

Spoiler: show

void CreateBalor();
#include "x2_inc_spellhook"

void main()
{

/*
  Spellcast Hook Code
  Added 2003-06-20 by Georg
  If you want to make changes to all spells,
  check x2_inc_spellhook.nss to find out more

*/

    if (!X2PreSpellCastCode())
    {
    // If code within the PreSpellCastHook (i.e. UMD) reports FALSE, do not run this spell
        return;
    }

// End of Spell Cast Hook


    //Declare major variables
    int nMetaMagic = GetMetaMagicFeat();
    int nCasterLevel = GetCasterLevel(OBJECT_SELF);
    int nDuration = GetCasterLevel(OBJECT_SELF);
    effect eSummon;
    effect eVis = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_FNF_SUMMON_GATE);
    //Make metamagic extend check
    if (nMetaMagic == METAMAGIC_EXTEND)
    {
        nDuration = nDuration *2;   //Duration is +100%
    }
    //Summon the Balor and apply the VFX impact
    //ApplyEffectAtLocation(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eVis, GetSpellTargetLocation());
    location lSpellTargetLOC = GetSpellTargetLocation();

    if(GetHasSpellEffect(SPELL_PROTECTION_FROM_EVIL) ||
       GetHasSpellEffect(SPELL_MAGIC_CIRCLE_AGAINST_EVIL) ||
       GetHasSpellEffect(SPELL_HOLY_AURA))
    {
//        eSummon = EffectSummonCreature("NW_S_BALOR",VFX_FNF_SUMMON_GATE,3.0);
        int nAlign = GetAlignmentGoodEvil(OBJECT_SELF);
        switch (nAlign)
        {
            case ALIGNMENT_EVIL:
                eSummon = EffectSummonCreature("NW_S_BALOR", VFX_FNF_SUMMON_GATE, 3.0);
            break;
            case ALIGNMENT_GOOD:
                eSummon = EffectSummonCreature("X0_WYRM_GOOD", VFX_FNF_SUMMON_CELESTIAL, 3.0);
            break;
            case ALIGNMENT_NEUTRAL:
                eSummon = EffectSummonCreature("X2_S_LICH_30", VFX_FNF_SUMMON_MONSTER_3, 1.0);
            break;
        }

        float fSeconds = RoundsToSeconds(nDuration);
        DelayCommand(3.0, ApplyEffectAtLocation(DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, eSummon, lSpellTargetLOC, fSeconds));

    }
    else
    {

        ApplyEffectAtLocation(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eVis, lSpellTargetLOC);
        DelayCommand(3.0, CreateBalor());
    }
}

void CreateBalor()
{
     CreateObject(OBJECT_TYPE_CREATURE, "NW_S_BALOR_EVIL", GetSpellTargetLocation());
}

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2008, 02:38:52 AM »
That's a 3.0 list?  Negative energy ray and burst, as well as the monster summoning and planar ally spells won't warrant a DP check then?

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2008, 02:52:45 AM »
Haha, I wanna see someone get a terrible DP for using something stupid like ghoul touch.

DM Macabre

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2008, 03:21:13 AM »
Negative Energy Ray and Burst are specific NWN spells as far as I remember. That's why they are not in the official canon. Though it makes sense to take them in for POTM.

On summonings and planar allies the 3rd Ed Core Rulebook states this:

Quote
Conjuration
Conjured creatures are more difficult to control in Ravenloft. In the round that the creature appears, the creature can attempt a Will save with a -2 penalty against your spell. Success indicates that the creature escapes your control and can act freely. Generally, it will seek to return to its home dimension. Calling: All calling spells contain an implicit pact between you and the outsider or elemental you conjure: when the creature has performed its assigned task, it is normally free to return to its plane of origin. Yet the Dark Powers severely restrict escape to other planes, preventing a called creature from leaving Ravenloft unless it can find an exit, like any other creature. When the called creature attempts to leave Ravenloft after completing its task and discovers it cannot, the pact is broken. You lose all control over the creature, which is likely to feel betrayed. A called creature's behavior once a broken pact frees it from your control depends on the creature's alignment. Evil or neutral creatures might try to destroy you in retaliation.
If you attempt to call an elemental, there is a 20% chance that the spell produces a dread elemental instead. [...]
Using a calling spell to conjure an evil creature requires a powers check.

Summoning
: Summoning spells are significantly warped by the severe restrictions on planar travel in Ravenloft. Rather than summoning outsiders for assistance, you conjure creatures taken from the surrounding region. Thus, only creatures found in the domain in which this spell is cast can be summoned. Summoned creatures in Ravenloft do not use the outsider template. Thus, summon monster I would summon a dire rat, not a fiendish dire rat. Attempts to summon an outsider like a succubus or kyton automatically fail unless such a creature happens to be in the domain. Attempts to summon elementals automatically produce dread elementals.
Most domains, such as those of the Core, have rich ecologies where many of the creatures listed under the summon spells can be found. Some wretched domains have extremely limited or even nonexistent ecologies. If you choose a creature to summon that is not present in the domain, the spell fails.

To apply this on the NWN system is a bit complicated. So the rule of thumb is, if your character intends to do something good, the chance for a DP check is really low or there will be no DP check at all.

On gate the rulebook states:

Quote
Gate: The gate created by this spell is oneway only, leading into but not out of Ravenloft.
This spell can be used in two ways:
Planar Travel: See Teleportation.
Calling Creatures: See Conjuration (Calling).
If you know the true name of a specific outsider or elemental creature already within Ravenloft, you can use this spell to summon it and demand a service. Trying to conjure an evil creature with this spell requires a powers check.

So trying to summon a good or neutral ally would not warrant a power check.

Though generally you would have to "know the true name of a specific outsider", which is a really hard quest and thus makes spells like gate questlike spells. One could assume that player characters able to call on such powers would have learned the name of a specific outsider and thus being able to cast gate. Normally most of the summoning spells would not call the creatures, which are actually called.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 03:40:21 AM by DM Macabre »

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2008, 03:32:33 AM »
Summoning a non-evil outsider is NOT grounds for a DP check. Only summoning evil outsiders is.

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2008, 05:19:31 AM »
And as a little side-note, PnPwise, these are the DP worthy spells. Gate is listed there, but it's circumstancial, but the way NWN handles Gate, it is DP worthy: (Not a complete list, but you can see why most casters in our game world would rarely reach high levels since most spells used warrent DP checks and you'd be darklord or heavily cursed by level 15):
Spoiler: show
Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Blasphemy, Chill Touch, Circle of Death, Circle of Doom, Contagion, Control Undead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, Curse Water, Death Knell, Desecrate, Destruction, Enervation, Energy Drain, Finger of Death, Gate (circumstancial), Ghoul Touch, Harm, Horrid Writhing, Inflict Wounds, Insanity, Limited Wish (circumstancial), Magic Jar, Modify Memory (circumstancial), Nightmare, Raise Dead, Reincarnate, Resurrection*, Slay Living, Soul Bind, Speak with Dead, Spectral Hand, True Resurrection*, Unhallow, Unholy Aura, Unholy blight, Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee, Wish (circumstancial)

(*Statistically, all NPC priests would be so DPed by now)

Spoiler: show

Raise Dead: This spell requires the deceased to make a Fortitude check save at DC (30 - Caster Level_. If the save succeeds, the spell performs normally. If the creature fails its save, it animates as an undead creature with HD equal to the subject's chracter level. The DM may choose the type of undead creature the subject returns as, but this spell cannot create liches. The newly created undead is free-willed.
Casting this spell requires a powers check.


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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2008, 06:09:50 AM »
Summoning a non-evil outsider is NOT grounds for a DP check. Only summoning evil outsiders is.


But lets say you summon a celestine being, that being might be a BIT pissed of once it cannot leave Ravenloft.  :twisted:
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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2008, 08:38:01 AM »
Summoning a non-evil outsider is NOT grounds for a DP check. Only summoning evil outsiders is.


But lets say you summon a celestine being, that being might be a BIT pissed of once it cannot leave Ravenloft.  :twisted:

Who's to say, it's actually a Celestine Being?

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Re: Spells - Gate
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2008, 10:05:20 AM »
Still on the topic of gate spells and Outsiders in the Domain of Dread, as I recall the thing that prevents Fiends from leaving the realm is their level of Corruption points.  They start out being able to come and go as they please, but its after they bind themselves to the land that they can't escape.

...so since Celestials wouldn't be trying to conduct arcane rituals to absorb the land-based powers in Ravenloft, they probably wouldn't be prevented from leaving, either.