Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Ehver on February 12, 2018, 08:32:59 AM

Title: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 12, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, or even if this is a good idea in the slightest, but it's a thought that occurred to me that I'd like to explore - especially since I've seen similar systems implemented on other servers before.

On a server such as this, in which player-vs-player conflicts are many any myriad, would it be a worthwhile idea to implement a system in which those who allow their characters to be permanently closured in the course of a story get some kind of reward for doing so? For instance, that they could apply to have the next character they make start at a higher level based on the level of the closured character, the strength of their application, and the circumstances of their closure and the how much of an RP-impact their character and its death had. This is obviously a subjective matter of opinion, but so is everything else that requires an application (or any sort of staff intervention).

I'm not going to get into dictating when or why people should closure their characters, or throw any judgments around if they don't, for whatever reason, but I do think that it might be a positive push to reward those that are willing to take risks and accept the extremest of consequences. The people that do this tend to generate a lot of truly quality RP with far-reaching consequences, and invest a lot of time and effort into their character in doing so.

To be clear, I am NOT suggesting that whenever a character is closured, the next character that the player makes should automatically get a boost of some kind, whether in starting levels or something else. I AM suggesting that when a character is permanently closured in the course of a story, they should have the opportunity to APPLY for such a boost, which can be approved or disapproved depending on a variety of IC and OOC factors depending on the staff's discretion in the same way that PrCs and other applications are handled.

I have a lot of respect for the players that are out there constantly pushing the limits and swallowing the consequences of their actions, or letting go of long-existing characters in favor of fresh blood. I know from personal experience that it's hard to do, and while I'm not suggesting this for my sake (as my closured character is already long, long gone), I do think it might be a nice idea for the future.

I don't know what sort of bonus would be fitting for this sort of thing, though starting level seems the easiest, or even if this would be a good idea (not sure if it would sow bad blood for those who closure their characters and don't get any bonus based on their application?), but it's an idea. And just to reiterate in case this is taken the wrong way, I am not suggesting we judge or punish those that keep their characters around for the long term!

Curious to know thoughts on this. Good idea? Bad idea? Too much hassle? Unfair? Discussed before? What "perks" would be acceptable and worthwhile? Etc.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 12, 2018, 08:51:27 AM
I would not want this and could write an essay on why. To be succinct, though, closure is part of a PC's story, and we should not view our PC's story ending as something that needs a reward. The reward was the journey: telling a good story with a fitting ending.

That said, I sort of think it happens already. Players who do a good job with their PCs build a reputation that helps them get their next PC started. It may not be formalized, but that's my perception.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Dumas on February 12, 2018, 09:04:03 AM
I’d be against any sort of reward for player character closures. Closures should be a natural part of a story, and a reward in itself.

Character closures for some players happen frequently - their style of play might be more prone to it, and as such, they could stack up “perks” far more than other players. This, to me, makes it feel sort of as if it could be a contest, and it shouldn’t be.

Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Arawn on February 12, 2018, 09:08:13 AM
For what it’s worth, the Team has considered this, but we always end up coming to the same conclusion as Iridni has.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 12, 2018, 09:23:10 AM
For what it’s worth, the Team has considered this, but we always end up coming to the same conclusion as Iridni has.

Understandably. For what it's worth, I do agree - closuring my main was something that I had been looking forward to for a long time, and the journey to reach it was an absolutely amazing and heart-wrenching ride and I don't regret the decision I made in doing so.

Closures should be a natural part of a story - but more often than not, they aren't. And while many of us do find the ending of a story to be rewarding (myself being one), there are equally as many people who don't. This server is difficult and it takes a lot of effort to create a character and build a meaningful story, let alone to get up to the higher levels.

I don't know that it would harm the server by implementing something like this, especially if it is gated behind an application. And it might ease the difficulty that inherently comes with letting go of a beloved character, and give people some incentive to let their characters follow the natural course of an unfolding story.

Like I said, I 100% agree that closure shouldn't need a reward... But what is and what should be are not always on the same line, and I have the tentative feeling that this kind change might foster an atmosphere in which people are more open to ending their characters and, in particular, letting their characters be ended when the story calls for it.

I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that there are many instances in which conflict breaks out and neither side is willing to admit "defeat", leading to a continuing cycle that devolves into OOC grudges. Admittedly, this is another problem altogether and could potentially be treated as an entirely separate issue... But it does illustrate the fact that what "should" be isn't always an accurate measuring-stick by which to make decisions.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Legion XXI on February 12, 2018, 09:49:32 AM
Arelith has a reward system and it has just led to people "farming" PCs for rewards.  It's common to roll an easily solo-able class and just powerleveling to the required prerequisites for a reward.  Sure, the application process would weed some of this out but ultimately I'm against anything that makes closing a character about anything other than the story.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 12, 2018, 11:09:30 AM
Ehver,

The current situation is not perfect, I agree, and what "is" and what "should be" are distinct. I doubt, however, that we will ever avoid completely cycles of grudges and OOC conflict. Unfortunately, I feel that players who can't "let go" are going to still be unhappy--unless their applications for the perks are then automatically approved. The perception that they've been treated unfairly will just be moved to a different venue when they don't receive the exact same reward as some other players. Consider also the message sent to those who don't apply at all.

If we agree that good players are accepting of consequences and get on with it, then it seems such a system will reward less agreeable players. Sometimes we all give the squeaky wheel a little grease to stop its squeaking, but in this instance I wouldn't favor it.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Norture on February 12, 2018, 11:37:54 AM
Agreeing with everything Iridni said here. As it stands, some people already accuse the team of "favourtism" towards good sports, when really it's all just an attitude thing. I can't imagine how it'd be amplified if there was an actual system in place.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: peps on February 12, 2018, 12:13:08 PM
It works on that server you're referencing because it's so easy to level there that bump in ease of leveling doesn't matter much.

The only thing I would possibly enjoy seeing taken from there is the random chance to receive the ability to ride horses if you close your char past a certain level.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 12, 2018, 12:19:52 PM
I'm going to be honest and say that I find these arguments unconvincing, as they seem based on the principle of not rewarding "undeserving" players, whereas I see this change as promoting desired behaviors.

Whether "undeserving" players also benefit from this idea or not shouldn't matter in the slightest - especially if the overall atmosphere and attitude on the server improves because it.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 12, 2018, 12:33:05 PM
Welp, I didn't make the argument it would reward "undeserving" players because presumably the application process would prevent that. What I said was "less agreeable." To quote your own description of them, "neither side is willing to admit 'defeat,' leading to a continuing cycle that devolves into OOC grudges. " This seems less agreeable to me than someone who is chill about it and keeps it IC.

Moreover, the heart of my argument is it does not promote desired behavior.

Who is rewarded? Those who ask for more just because they "allowed" their PCs to be closured.

Who isn't rewarded? Those who are content to have their PCs closured without any extra incentive.

I don't see that as incentivizing good behavior but rather bad because it weakens the proposition that you said you believe yourself:

Quote
I 100% agree that closure shouldn't need a reward...
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 12, 2018, 12:42:09 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree then, Iridni. I don't know what else to say that would have you understand my point of view.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 12, 2018, 01:06:56 PM
I don't think I have any trouble understanding what you've written, so if you feel you've expressed yourself adequately, then I do understand it. We just disagree :)

Some parents, for example, believe you should pay children an allowance for doing household chores. Others think everyone who lives in a home should contribute to taking care of it without having to be paid. Who 's right?

I'm not sure.

But!!

If you believe that a child should do chores without an allowance, you will undermine your own belief by paying the child who asks for an allowance. And the child who used to not ask for an allowance will  now very likely start to ask for one.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 12, 2018, 01:08:22 PM
Then we'll just have to agree to disagree, regardless of understanding.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Better Dread than Dead on February 12, 2018, 01:41:02 PM
Acknowledging, of course, that this would primarily benefit me and players who share my style of play, and thus I am very biased in how I’d view a system like this, I think many things — the scarcity of loot, the difficulty of acquiring end-game crafted goods like enchanted gear, only serves to encourage players to hold onto a character long after the proverbial sun has set on them. Character closure I’ve found to be rather uncommon — far more common is these characters are shelved, only returning when they feel as though things are exciting again, which naturally leads to resentment about, say, high-level characters sticking their nose in conflicts they were heretofore uninvolved in.

As such, anything that could provide players with an incentive to close their characters would be a welcome addition, in my opinion. We can and should, of course, consider implementation carefully, because there are those who could and would game the system, like on Arelith. This isn’t me speaking as a developer or a CC member or a former DM, merely as a player who knows how things work. It would be nice if the stories characters had an ending, and it would be nice if players sought this out of their own initiative; however, I think we need to be honest with ourselves, and accept that our systems, at present, do a lot to discourage players from bringing closure to their characters.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: lakhena on February 12, 2018, 01:55:39 PM
I've been on servers with perks for closure / permadeathing.  It can incentivize people to let their PCs end, especially when paired with a reward that is tied to improved storytelling on the next PC, rather than a reward of increased levels or % of XP.  What I've seen work well is customized RP item (no real stats) or one low level magic item easily found in the loot tables (with a story tied to it) or allowance of some background story perk (e.g. you were a lower tier noble's bastard son). This tended to help people get excited about the next PC and what story they were going to tell with it, rather than just reduce the XP grind from a month to a week or whatever. 

I'm not saying that an XP reward for closure is a bad thing -- I just prefer to see, if it's done, a reward that's based on enhancing the story for the next PC.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Zwickelfaust on February 12, 2018, 01:55:59 PM
Adding a reward for closing a character is not a good thing. Many times, a closure goes nothing like one hopes. It can be sudden and harsh. Giving special treatment to those lucky enough to close their characters the way they wanted can be unfair. That being said, the idea of an application for closure is a great idea. Many times, a player wants to close their character on their own terms, and finding a DM to assist your closure could be difficult. If there was an application for a DM assisted closure, a player might be able to make plans with the DM team that can satisfy their desire to close their character properly and with some flare that only a DM can assist with. I'm all for applications for closure, but I don't think it should have any effect on your next character.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: peps on February 12, 2018, 02:04:28 PM
Acknowledging, of course, that this would primarily benefit me and players who share my style of play, and thus I am very biased in how I’d view a system like this, I think many things — the scarcity of loot, the difficulty of acquiring end-game crafted goods like enchanted gear, only serves to encourage players to hold onto a character long after the proverbial sun has set on them.

This fully. I admit I have a difficult time closing my characters (I've done away with two? now), because I only have so much available time to play; unlike classical D&D or forum RP, we have to invest actual time that involves little to no roleplay to simply level and acquire gear to remain relevant assuming your character is one that would jump into action. While I'm not saying it's impossible to roleplay while dungeoning, it just ends up being impractical your 5th+ way through a dungeon unless your character is an archaeologist or similar.

I am behind Ehver on this, but like I was saying the place this concept originates from works for a reason. Maybe we could simply find a different way to incentivize our own players. Some off-the-top ideas: Lowered ECL for subraces (Possibly one less ECL max?), increased XP gain from the roleplay bonus, option to petition to add a reference to your closed character into the world indefinitely.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: booksarefun666 on February 12, 2018, 02:20:34 PM
Its hard to let go a character with all the time it takes to get a guy level 20. Really, the difference between it being in arelith and here is you can't circle grind to 30 (20) effectively and an incentive to let go of all that time would be good.

I'm not saying that the people that are level 20s in the mist camp or dementlieu are bad people. They won potm essessentily, nobody is going to mess with them and if they weren't so scared to lose their characters they could dictate the tone of the server and even then, they do simply by existing and going out when they can win.

All the current system does, favoring end game and being aged with fat loot, ensures nobody sane wants to closure. The ones that do frequently swap out characters, perpetually staying mid level and badly geared.

Closure isn't really a reward in itself despite it being said otherwise IMO. Most people leave nothing behind when they get corpse hid or even rarer and perhaps more tragically, by DMs, and you're doing deliveries to krofburg to recoop your loss.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 12, 2018, 02:25:20 PM
Whether it is framed as placating disgruntled players who don't wish to let go of a conflict when their PC is closured or players who just hold onto a PC because of fearing to start over, in either case I think the system would reward behavior it would be preferable to discourage.

Dread's argument that it would be an incentive to clear out deadwood high levels, however, is different from rewarding that player who lets her PC go in a meaningful story arc.

I think any game based on the gradual accumulation of wealth and power is going to discourage anyone from wanting to start over, but POTM is primarily supposed to be about RP.  I honestly don't think it's that difficult to get a new PC going if someone is truly good at the game, because in just the last year, I've seen it happen over and over with veteran players.

You know what is hard? Being a completely new player without any in-game connections and being told all the time FOIC. A reward system for veterans would increase that disparity. If loot is scarce and end-game crafted gear is difficult to acquire for oldtimers, think what it is like to the player who starts here fresh without the experience of how that's done. The worst danger to me for POTM is it become more insular so that new players find it overwhelmingly difficult and--over time--the regulars suffer the inevitable attrition.

Quote
Character closure I’ve found to be rather uncommon — far more common is these characters are shelved, only returning when they feel as though things are exciting again, which naturally leads to resentment about, say, high-level characters sticking their nose in conflicts they were heretofore uninvolved in.

Will these players change even if they are promised a couple of starter levels up on everyone else, say? Given that most veterans say they achieve two levels easily in the first week of a new PC, I doubt that would influence their behavior much.

An easy fix for the above would be to say any PC not played in some set amount of time is considered closured and can be reactivated only by application. This would also address the recent discussion about antagonistic PCs who hide out until the heat dies down.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 12, 2018, 02:27:44 PM
Quote
option to petition to add a reference to your closed character into the world indefinitely.

This I would support :)
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: DM Brimstone on February 12, 2018, 02:48:49 PM
What about mixing in memoriam loading screen text for closured characters as an incentive? Assuming it is possible and viable, as determined by the developers, it could provide an opportunity for closed characters to be remembered and a part of the server without (hopefully) putting too much strain on the dev staff with in-client alterations or an OOC graveyard area.

A simple sentence with the character name could suffice. For example:

"In memoriam Joe Outlander (playerlogin)
A freeze spell stopped him in his tracks, literally."
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: peps on February 12, 2018, 02:59:02 PM
What about mixing in memoriam loading screen text for closured characters as an incentive? Assuming it is possible and viable, as determined by the developers, it could provide an opportunity for closed characters to be remembered and a part of the server without (hopefully) putting too much strain on the dev staff with in-client alterations or an OOC graveyard area.

A simple sentence with the character name could suffice. For example:

"In memoriam Joe Outlander (playerlogin)
A freeze spell stopped him in his tracks, literally."
Definitely be a nice touch. It's always cool hearing of past happenings. What of the ability to allow DM force-closed characters to possibly garner the ability for a more in-client alteration? That's me assuming that DM forced-closures are rare as anything.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 12, 2018, 03:51:00 PM
Whether it is framed as placating disgruntled players who don't wish to let go of a conflict when their PC is closured or players who just hold onto a PC because of fearing to start over, in either case I think the system would reward behavior it would be preferable to discourage.

Dread's argument that it would be an incentive to clear out deadwood high levels, however, is different from rewarding that player who lets her PC go in a meaningful story arc.

I think any game based on the gradual accumulation of wealth and power is going to discourage anyone from wanting to start over, but POTM is primarily supposed to be about RP.  I honestly don't think it's that difficult to get a new PC going if someone is truly good at the game, because in just the last year, I've seen it happen over and over with veteran players.

You know what is hard? Being a completely new player without any in-game connections and being told all the time FOIC. A reward system for veterans would increase that disparity. If loot is scarce and end-game crafted gear is difficult to acquire for oldtimers, think what it is like to the player who starts here fresh without the experience of how that's done. The worst danger to me for POTM is it become more insular so that new players find it overwhelmingly difficult and--over time--the regulars suffer the inevitable attrition.

Quote
Character closure I’ve found to be rather uncommon — far more common is these characters are shelved, only returning when they feel as though things are exciting again, which naturally leads to resentment about, say, high-level characters sticking their nose in conflicts they were heretofore uninvolved in.

Will these players change even if they are promised a couple of starter levels up on everyone else, say? Given that most veterans say they achieve two levels easily in the first week of a new PC, I doubt that would influence their behavior much.

An easy fix for the above would be to say any PC not played in some set amount of time is considered closured and can be reactivated only by application. This would also address the recent discussion about antagonistic PCs who hide out until the heat dies down.

I ( agree to ;) ) disagree on essentially every point you've brought up here. First of all, I do not in the slightest understand how it would be rewarding behavior that should be discouraged. In what sense? My suggestion is that this would be gated behind an application in the same way that PrCs and other privileges are gated - in which sense, people would have to earn it. It wouldn't be handed out to just anyone who tosses their character into a garbage bin, but to those who have created a meaningful story and brought it to an end, whether naturally or through conflict with other characters. How is this behavior to be discouraged?

Furthermore, I think it is unfair to say that starting a new character is easy. I do not consider myself a bad RPer, and I do not consider myself bad at this game, but I do consider it hard to start a new character, especially after closuring an old one. There are definitely those who do not - those that create and closure characters on a regular basis, and do a darn good job of it, too. I applaud them (and I think that they should be rewarded for doing so), but saying that is is "easy" is underestimating the difficulty that some have, myself included, in letting go of long-standing characters.

Next, neither I nor anyone else seems to be suggesting that the perk for this system should be starting levels. I used it as an example in my original post, because it was the most concrete and readily at hand - but I clearly left it open for other suggestions.

And finally, I am thoroughly against gating returning characters behind an application. My current character was shelved for quite a long time before I closured my previous main, at which point I drew her out of retirement, and I am glad that I did, and I don't think that I should be required to leave that decision up to the staff. I don't see how it is any of their business whether or not I want to play a character that I haven't played in a long time. That some people abuse this is another issue entirely, and not one that I or anyone else who has done nothing wrong should be punished for.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: MAB77 on February 12, 2018, 05:21:45 PM
Applications and in memoriam loading screens. These all require time to assess and built. Time we strain to find ourselves for our various tasks already. Adding more tasks to DM, Devs and CC is not a viable solution. Most Internet connections would not even allow for the loading screen to be there long enough to read. Beside, I can't even start to fathom the accusations of favoritism that may arise acquiescing to this or that request and not others in timely manner. It is a pandora box best left unopened.

I also disagree on a time limit for several reasons. There are multiple reasons, unrelated to gaming, one could be away for a while. Some have to contend with university semesters along a full time job (my case). We have players in military forces that sometime get deployed for long periods of times, etc. And sometimes it's just that a player needs a well deserved mental break. No one should be punished for having real life responsibilities.

The journey is its own reward as it was told earlier. Though I do advocate setting goals to accomplish at the characters creation to dictate when it should  retire, I certainly understand that stories grow in the telling and that one grows an attachment to their characters. Just as a new char is an opportunity to tell a new enticing story.

My point here is that we cater to a wide variety of playing styles. Holding on an old char is as valid as changing char frequently. It's all in the eye of the Beholder, we are all responsible for the quality of our RP and the fun we derive off it. So long as you have fun playing your current char, that you can further enhance the storylines of other you cross, that is all that is important. What need is truly there for more incentives on a RP server?
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 12, 2018, 05:28:47 PM
Furthermore, I think it is unfair to say that starting a new character is easy. I do not consider myself a bad RPer, and I do not consider myself bad at this game, but I do consider it hard to start a new character, especially after closuring an old one. There are definitely those who do not - those that create and closure characters on a regular basis, and do a darn good job of it, too. I applaud them (and I think that they should be rewarded for doing so), but saying that is is "easy" is underestimating the difficulty that some have, myself included, in letting go of long-standing characters.

I was responding to Dread's points about the mechanical difficulty of getting a PC up to snuff, not any emotional attachment you may have to any of your PCs. Nothing mechanically in the game is going to address that for you, IMO--although the suggestions of some sort of remembrance would be more likely to (I would think) than saying your next PC gets to start at level 4.

I'm very much attached to Iridni. I may quit playing when she goes and may not have it in me to pour that much into another PC. But being given a headstart on leveling won't change that. It just makes the game easier (which I already think is easier for veterans than new players).

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Next, neither I nor anyone else seems to be suggesting that the perk for this system should be starting levels. I used it as an example in my original post, because it was the most concrete and readily at hand - but I clearly left it open for other suggestions.

I likewise am using it as an easy example (although to be frank I see a disconnect between saying no one is suggesting something...and then immediately say "I used it as an example").

Quote
And finally, I am thoroughly against gating returning characters behind an application. My current character was shelved for quite a long time before I closured my previous main, at which point I drew her out of retirement, and I am glad that I did, and I don't think that I should be required to leave that decision up to the staff. I don't see how it is any of their business whether or not I want to play a character that I haven't played in a long time. That some people abuse this is another issue entirely, and not one that I or anyone else who has done nothing wrong should be punished for.

Ok. Again, I was addressing a perceived problem that Dread brought up.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: APorg on February 12, 2018, 07:11:54 PM
This is one of those things that should be incentivised by culture, not system.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Phantasia on February 12, 2018, 07:17:17 PM
This is one of those things that should be incentivised by culture, not system.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 13, 2018, 12:19:27 AM
This is one of those things that should be incentivised by culture, not system.

+2
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 13, 2018, 01:39:44 AM
This is one of those things that should be incentivised by culture, not system.

+2

I don't understand this argument in the slightest, as this (perceived) problem has existed ever since I started on this server, and that was years ago. It isn't incentivized by culture. Period.

Furthermore, I don't understand why the word "incentivize" appears to be so demonizing. Incentives exist in every walk of society, whether it be a parent telling their child that they can pick up a toy at the store if they behave well, or a government subsidizing work and products that they find valuable.

There is nothing wrong with the promise of reward for good behavior. Closuring a character is hard. Starting over is hard, both mechanically and emotionally. What is so wrong with giving someone a reward for doing something extremely difficult but, ultimately, beneficial to the entire server?

I am not saying that this should be implemented, as I do not know what kind of perk would be fitting and fair, or if the devotion of resources to such a system would be worthwhile in the end. But (most) of the arguments I've heard against it are simply this nebulous idea of "but people should be good on their own, why should they need a reward" which I find to be a highly idealistic and unrealistic response, and I wonder if these people are turning down pay raises when they do a good job at their work because they "just should be".
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: peps on February 13, 2018, 02:23:42 AM
This is one of those things that should be incentivised by culture, not system.

+2

With existing systems (difficulty leveling, difficult loot gathers, enchanting, etc.) that have defined a culture for the opposite of what the server hopes to achieve (great stories with great closures), it seems only natural to look to incentivize players for upholding the values the server is based on. While that motivation/reward doesn't need to be massive, dismissing this type of suggestion entirely is harmful to the server's stability.

Assuming, however, we dismiss the problem as something meant to be addressed by culture, how exactly can culture be shaped to make it feel worthwhile to close your character?
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: APorg on February 13, 2018, 04:20:47 AM
I agree that closuring a character is hard, but I think when you create a system to reward people to do something they ought to be doing, it sometimes becomes about gaming that system rather than pursuing the thing in itself, for itself.

What do I mean? Concretely: sometimes when a character is cornered and about to be closured, the player will be trying to find outs. If you offer them an out in the sense that they can port some of their character's advantage to the next, you run the risk that this becomes the focus of their closure ark. That's how the perk can eclipse the purpose. (If you want real life examples of how this sort of thing can backfire on a grander scale, think tax avoidance through charity.)

TL;DR: character closure is good but it should be embraced for the right reasons, not turned into a system that might be gamed for the wrong reasons.

It's not that I don't appreciate your point. It's a lot of work to get that XP, get those items, get the enchanted gear and grind the XP again... but all that stuff is tangential to the focus of the game. If you don't want to grind dungeons, nobody's forcing you. You can still be involved in profound PvP as a low level; 99% of PvP is probably social/talking/spying. Sure, it's risky, but if you make the right allies then it doesn't matter how weak your character is. And I suspect (although of course I don't speak for anyone) that you may get more recognition from the DM team by trying to be a low level alliance maker/breaker than waiting until you're level 20 before making any power moves, like most people do.

My point is, being high level is not the main thrust of the game; if the reward materially aids you getting more XP, then it's missing the point. If you want a reward that's cosmetic instead, well, you don't need a closure perk for that, some DMs will be happy to give you cosmetic flourishes for fun that enhances the server. But even then, a cosmetic reward should be done for the right reasons, not as an entitlement.

I will give ground on Crafts, though. I'll agree that grinding for Crafts is an utter chore that doesn't add much to the game and makes me more reluctant to closure characters.
(Having teeth pulled sounds more fun than learning gilding twice.) Allowing some portion of a closured character's Craft skills to be transfered to new characters might have a positive effect overall.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 13, 2018, 04:32:21 AM
Concretely: sometimes when a character is cornered and about to be closured, the player will be trying to find outs. If you offer them an out in the sense that they can port some of their character's advantage to the next, you run the risk that this becomes the focus of their closure ark.

TL;DR: character closure is good but it should be embraced for the right reasons, not turned into a system that might be gamed for the wrong reasons.

I disagree. Why should the reason for doing something matter? If I donate to charity because doing so impresses my friends and not because I actually care about the charity, I still donated to charity. I still did something good, even if I didn't do it for the "right" reasons.

This would be gated behind an application - therefore, you would have to make a case to get the perk in the first place. That means that, by definition, you would have to have improved the atmosphere of the server and generated quality RP. I don't see why it would matter in the slightest why you did this, if everyone benefits from it. Saying that someone should do something for the right reason is such an abstractly ethical argument that totally ignores the reality of how people actually work in favor of how we ideally feel they "should" work.

I don't care if someone just created an awesome RP situation for me because they had some ulterior motive in mind. It improved my experience. It improved theirs. Win-win.

...As for passing on crafting, that's an interesting idea for a possible perk. ;)
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: APorg on February 13, 2018, 04:54:24 AM
You don't accept the premise that poor motives can corrupt the meaning and outcome of actions? I find that very ironic on a Ravenloft server. :P But yes, then we fundamentally disagree. I think I have a different perspective rather than being guilty of "totally ignoring reality" (kinda rude BTW), but I'm not interested in debating ethics.

Also: gating things through an application has an inherent bureaucracy that you don't seem to be really considering. If even a simple application requires six DMs 5 minutes to consider, that's 30 minutes of DM time that could have been spent on something else. Bureaucratic opportunity cost of DM time is very important for communities like this, with a volunteer admin staff. Fundamentally it's up to the admin team to decide how best to invest their volunteered time resources.

Quote
...As for passing on crafting, that's an interesting idea for a possible perk. ;)

So far the only iteration of this idea that I could support.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 13, 2018, 05:01:44 AM
You don't accept the premise that poor motives can corrupt the meaning and outcome of actions? I find that very ironic on a Ravenloft server. :P But yes, then we fundamentally disagree. I think I have a different perspective rather than being guilty of "totally ignoring reality" (kinda rude BTW), but I'm not interested in debating ethics.

Also: gating things through an application has an inherent bureaucracy that you don't seem to be really considering. If even a simple application requires six DMs 5 minutes to consider, that's 30 minutes of DM time that could have been spent on something else. Bureaucratic opportunity cost of DM time is very important for communities like this, with a volunteer admin staff. Fundamentally it's up to the admin team to decide how best to invest their volunteered time resources.

Quote
...As for passing on crafting, that's an interesting idea for a possible perk. ;)

So far the only iteration of this idea that I could support.

I feel like the argument is ignoring the reality of how the server actually works, not that you are ignoring reality in general. ;) But I apologize, and I hope you understand that it wasn't meant as a personal attack. Indeed, it looks like we disagree on a fundamental level, and there isn't much that can be done about that!

As for ignoring the amount of effort that this would cost to implement, that I most certainly am not. I do believe that I have mentioned in multiple of my posts that I did not know if this would be worth the effort, considering the time and effort the staff would have to place into it.

The only argument that I'm making is, indeed, that I don't accept the premise that poor motives must corrupt the meaning and outcome of actions, and that I don't feel like it should be used as a blanket statement to dismiss anyone else's opinion on the matter on the basis of taking a "moral highground".
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 13, 2018, 07:39:19 AM
The current crafting system is grindy, but it's another facet of the game that is so much easier for a veteran than a new player. If it were not for OOC info like the video tutorials, it would be an almost impossible hill for a first-time PC. If you've done it once, you really have very little desire to do it again, but that doesn't change the reality that doing it the second time for an experienced player is so much easier.

So once more it's an example of something very, very hard and with unenjoyable aspects that, rather than make easier and more enjoyable for new players (improve), the perk approach is to make it easier on experienced players, who it already is less of a challenge for.

Second, doing so devalues the achievement of the new PC because the more PCs selling crafted gear, the less it's worth. Merchants have to compete with one another. A new player, therefore, who goes through all the trouble of learning her trade for the first-time in ignorance and trial and error, will see her wares in competition with the veteran  PC who got perked to the same place.

If crafting is an "utter chore," let's fix that for everyone--not just the veterans :)

Also, regarding the process of the application, it's worth remembering that we all play on different time zones, and PC arcs in the cases we're talking about can take years to resolve. Players come and go over the course of a PC's life--even DMs.

This is going to make evaluating an application very subjective and problematic. At least in asking for an ECL or PrC, the player's application is about something in the future and much of the approval or denial can therefore be about the quality of the application itself. I don't necessarily agree with the premise that being able to write a good app is an indication that the resultant PC will be well played, but what else can one go on? In the case of closure, however, what we would like to reward is actual past IC accomplishment, regardless of the player's ability to write a good application.

There is the reality of what the PC did or didn't do and an application need not reflect that at all. Yes, we can console ourselves with the thought that the DMs will have omniscience and perfect memories, but we have had decent turnover in DMs in the last year, for example. Worse, most players watching and seeing who gets approved and denied will have only the slimmest idea of whether the decision is fair.

Creating a system in which distinctions are made between players so that the playing field is objectively less level and basing it on very subjective measures is not going to "improve the overall atmosphere and attitude  of the server."
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 13, 2018, 08:00:29 AM
Creating a system in which distinctions are made between players so that the playing field is objectively less level and basing it on very subjective measures is not going to "improve the overall atmosphere and attitude  of the server."

This is exactly what an (A)MPC (and, in part, PrC) application is based on.

Some of your disagreement seems to be based on the fact that it would be creating an unfair advantage for "veteran" players. Can you clarify this, perhaps? I don't think that this system has anything at all to do with veteran players, considering anyone, veteran or otherwise, can successfully generate RP and closure a character - and they certainly don't need to be high level to do it. Furthermore, I don't think that veteran players would be getting any more of an advantage out of this than they already had simply by being veterans in the first place - as the perks themselves are unlikely to be anything more than small rewards that, at best, cut back on the tedium of investing in a new character.

The application process is, indeed, something that would need to be handled carefully if it were ever implemented, and would undoubtedly cause a fair amount of overhead - the question then being whether or not the positives of such a change could balance this out, making the effort worthwhile. No one is suggesting that DMs never make mistakes, but I also don't agree that such a task as reviewing this kind of application would be impossible or even that difficult, as these types of judgments are already made by the staff on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 13, 2018, 09:01:51 AM
Creating a system in which distinctions are made between players so that the playing field is objectively less level and basing it on very subjective measures is not going to "improve the overall atmosphere and attitude  of the server."

This is exactly what an (A)MPC (and, in part, PrC) application is based on.

No, other apps are centered on an expectation of future RP performance; this app would be based on past results. (I made that distinction already.)

Some of your disagreement seems to be based on the fact that it would be creating an unfair advantage for "veteran" players. Can you clarify this, perhaps? I don't think that this system has anything at all to do with veteran players, considering anyone, veteran or otherwise, can successfully generate RP and closure a character - and they certainly don't need to be high level to do it.

From your initial post: "they could apply to have the next character they make start at a higher level based on the level of the closured character." You have now disavowed both, saying no one is suggesting that the PC be rewarded by a higher level and that the previous level isn't important in evaluating who gets the perk.

Furthermore, I don't think that veteran players would be getting any more of an advantage out of this than they already had simply by being veterans in the first place - as the perks themselves are unlikely to be anything more than small rewards that, at best, cut back on the tedium of investing in a new character.

These are, objectively, advantages, regardless of how you choose to view them.

Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 13, 2018, 09:11:23 AM
The server prohibits muling. The server prohibits using one of your PCs to rescue another.

The idea of closure is an ending. One PC has ended; time to start another, fresh and new.

To me wanting a past PC to carry over to my next violates the ethos underpinning all of this. In terms of IC and RP, it is metagaming as there is no IC justification. In terms of looking at POTM as a game, it seems to me something like this: "Well, I won our previous game of Monopoly, and that was a long and tedious affair, which I really didn't enjoy until I had Boardwalk and Park Place with hotels. How about I get to start the next with 2,000 dollars instead of 1,500?"
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Ehver on February 13, 2018, 09:56:21 AM
The server prohibits muling. The server prohibits using one of your PCs to rescue another.

The idea of closure is an ending. One PC has ended; time to start another, fresh and new.

To me wanting a past PC to carry over to my next violates the ethos underpinning all of this. In terms of IC and RP, it is metagaming as there is no IC justification. In terms of looking at POTM as a game, it seems to me something like this: "Well, I won our previous game of Monopoly, and that was a long and tedious affair, which I really didn't enjoy until I had Boardwalk and Park Place with hotels. How about I get to start the next with 2,000 dollars instead of 1,500?"

Ouch. Sorry that you see it that way.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: RedwizardD on February 13, 2018, 10:25:35 AM
Perhaps it is not my place to interject in this conversation. But the idea of rewarding people for character closure might sound good on paper, seems more like it would end up a double-edged sword.

On one hand rewarding people of well played and finished characters could lead to interesting little trinkets and the like entering play.

 On the other, it has the potential to generate animosity between people who have been able to successfully close their character (what happens if it is cut short before their story makes meaningful progress?) and people just starting out. As Iridni Ren points out, it seems a tad against the spirit of the thing.

In addition, granting a player an item (regardless of how minor) or renaming something for a new character would take time on the part of the DM team. Time they may have preferred to spend building an event for a group rather then granting a bonus that only affects one person off the merits of an older character. That could lead to having to justify your character's story and setting up some sort of record to keep things fair and ensuring people are not closuring willy nilly or trying to get multiple boons from the same story line. Can you imagine the influx of requests coming in every new character week?
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 13, 2018, 10:42:17 AM
I agree that any reward system for a character well played would have an impact on the Team's time. So it should and will be their decision whether it is worth doing and would have an overall positive impact on the community versus how they might otherwise focus their efforts.

The reasons I kind of like the "memorial" system as opposed to kind of loathing the perk system are it is more appropriately aligned with the past and keeping that good story remembered, rather than some future advantage. Secondly, when Ehver talks about emotional attachment to a PC, it seems more likely to satisfy that. For me, when Iridni is closured, that kind of reward would be more fulfilling and comforting than a perk on my hypothetical next PC.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Silas Rotleaf on February 13, 2018, 07:16:21 PM
While I believe it often takes a certain amount of storytelling maturity to decide when to permanently closure a character... I'm not sure what sort of incentives to closure a character would be well appropriate I guess? It's an interesting idea though, for sure!
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Norture on February 13, 2018, 08:08:38 PM
I got to thinking, with all this talk, how many of us posting in this thread have actually closed a character? I'm curious. AMPCs don't count, you make an AMPC knowing they'll be closed. Obviously MPCs count, since that was your main that you decided to close through monster.

I'll start-- None of my chars actively closed. I had one commit suicide and shelved infinite others, but none of them were really deep story characters that I completed. My opinion in this thread is meaningless.

I want to hear other thoughts from other people who have had characters die, tell us how many chars of yours have died and build on your argument from that.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Silas Rotleaf on February 13, 2018, 08:46:50 PM
I used to DM/GM a game where people got extra powers and better stats on newer chars for closuring their old ones... But what happened was you had this weird cycle where there were all these rapid throw away deaths and it started to get stupidly obvious people were just using it for cheesing reasons because well... We realized a bit late that if chars have the lifespan of moths and mayflies you as the reader, the fellow role player and even the DMs themselves aren't going to find the stories woven all that engaging so I suppose... Yes I know this is subjective as hell, it may come down to a question of balance.

In hindsight: It was pretty much free form and home brew. Also, the core group wasn't terribly mature. Rather chaotic.
That's part of why I stopped DMing. It got to where I felt like if I kept doing it I might end up unable to enjoy role play anymore.
It wasn't a terrible group and we worked to update our systems you know, test things for balance and have good communication in general between the players and the moderators but... It just things would tend to go badly. For a number of reasons. I remember the showering inundation like a freaking tidal wave of everybody and their char's cousin wanting to a. Reincarnate, b. Get the new higher tier of abilities and c. Closure their chars. It was not subtle. It was not fun.
Lol. It got to be a big stupid headache and exercise in disappointment when you realized a lot of the players cared more about becoming the most powerful whatever than developing an interesting arc, character progression and so on. They were good kids though but switching to playing POTM was a breath of fresh air.

No more line counts, no more having to have a moderator step in to intervene in every single PvP conflict interaction... You get given a lot longer leash in some ways here than in the hodgepodge of online text based role play.

Lastly Norture, I've officially closured two chars: Kaine and Gias.
Playing Kaine often felt like it was an exercise  in masochism and Gias I just didn't like how he was turning out plus lower level barb leveling down on dying too much and losing his equipment all the time just got to be a pain in the butt.

Closuring my barb felt like a no brainer and was totally on my own choice. Closuring my fighter yes, I was bitter about it but then I got to considering what other classes I could try playing and you know, I'm honestly having a lot of fun on my rogue!

And I've got my old NCE paladin as a fallback too if I can ever be arsed to work out some sort of a story or do relationship building on him. He was a dwarf as the unusual hook and a bunch of other newly misted dwarves (our "gang of Seven") formed sort of an improvised clan to try and navigate our way around hostile Barovia. That was really fun.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 13, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Quote
My opinion in this thread is meaningless.

Um...no it's not. This isn't a discussion about what it feels like to close a character.

The discussion is:

Quote
On a server such as this, in which player-vs-player conflicts are many any myriad, would it be a worthwhile idea to implement a system in which those who allow their characters to be permanently closured in the course of a story get some kind of reward for doing so?

Compare:

Quote
Would it be a worthwhile idea to implement a system in which those who play a cleric who worships Pelor and serves as Herald of the Wayfarer Kinship get some kind of reward for doing so?

In both cases the valid opinions are not limited to those who have the personal experience :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_accomplishment
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Sinful Mystic on February 13, 2018, 09:08:09 PM
I got to thinking, with all this talk, how many of us posting in this thread have actually closed a character? I'm curious. AMPCs don't count, you make an AMPC knowing they'll be closed. Obviously MPCs count, since that was your main that you decided to close through monster.

I'll start-- None of my chars actively closed. I had one commit suicide and shelved infinite others, but none of them were really deep story characters that I completed. My opinion in this thread is meaningless.

I want to hear other thoughts from other people who have had characters die, tell us how many chars of yours have died and build on your argument from that.

Lots of people have their characters killed and bodies hidden and eventually stop logging on with the ghost after giving up hope.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Silas Rotleaf on February 13, 2018, 09:11:15 PM
Don't forget faction and Garda assisted suicide!  :lol:
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Stygian Messiah on February 13, 2018, 11:04:38 PM
I got to thinking, with all this talk, how many of us posting in this thread have actually closed a character? I'm curious. AMPCs don't count, you make an AMPC knowing they'll be closed. Obviously MPCs count, since that was your main that you decided to close through monster.

I'll start-- None of my chars actively closed. I had one commit suicide and shelved infinite others, but none of them were really deep story characters that I completed. My opinion in this thread is meaningless.

I want to hear other thoughts from other people who have had characters die, tell us how many chars of yours have died and build on your argument from that.

Yeah about five minutes ago. The end of a good story was payment enough.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Troukk on February 14, 2018, 12:28:47 AM
I got to thinking, with all this talk, how many of us posting in this thread have actually closed a character? I'm curious. AMPCs don't count, you make an AMPC knowing they'll be closed. Obviously MPCs count, since that was your main that you decided to close through monster.

I'll start-- None of my chars actively closed. I had one commit suicide and shelved infinite others, but none of them were really deep story characters that I completed. My opinion in this thread is meaningless.

I want to hear other thoughts from other people who have had characters die, tell us how many chars of yours have died and build on your argument from that.

Yeah about five minutes ago. The end of a good story was payment enough.

I have to agree with Kalashnikov here.

I've had 4 main characters murdered and closured. Three of them were the leaders of their respective factions when it happened.

It was inmensely satisfying to end a storyline properly. That is the real payment. That said, I've never invested much in items/crafting levels on my characters, so I don't feel a real pain in losing them for such reasons. But other people have invested hundreds of hours training crafts and gathering items and don't want that to go down the drain. I can see where they are coming from.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: emptyanima on February 14, 2018, 08:45:03 AM
Before I give my thoughts, I will preface this by saying that I have closed several  characters during my time here, and hope to wrap up stories for long-term shelved characters as well.

I find immense satisfaction in seeing stories through to the end. If I start watching a film or tv programme, I usually have to watch it to the end to see that conclusion. I feel uncomfortable when I have to leave a story unfinished for whatever reason. So, when I conclude a character’s story, not only do I enjoy seeing how it may affect other characters, but it also helps me to focus on other or new characters.

I’ve had characters go out in various ways, big and small, noble and cowardly. It gives me a chance to think about the story as a whole and that brings me a lot of happiness as a very ‘tidy’ person. I also love to see action and failure to act bring about consequences.

I will admit, perhaps selfishly, that there are times when I see characters about and wonder what else they will contribute to the narrative, or whether they have ‘run their course’. Oftentimes I am corrected by actions they take, and I feel quite bashful about it! I know that sometimes the sudden unexplained disappearance of characters that stories are developing with can make it difficult for the story to flow naturally (and I say this while painfully aware of my reduced activity at the moment). It can be jarring and in the short term, difficult for the story to continue if characters vanish for the fear of their story being ended. Again, as a matter of personal preference, I relish conflict-heavy stories. I don’t necessarily mean CvC or PvP in that, but if everything is going wonderfully for a character, while a nice change of pace for me, it can be dull to play for extended periods. I am not saying I need death and explosions everywhere, but having difficulties, trials and gnawing questions to answer make a character much more interesting to play, in my mind.

Ultimately, I do see an appeal to sweetening the deal for those folks who decide to round off their chapter in the server’s story, but I know it’s not practical and is counter to the philosophy of everyone starting from scratch every time. Where you usually have a blank sheet, you’ve suddenly added a bit of outline or framework that other people don’t have or can access. I know for a fact that several of our great community members would use these perks as part of their storytelling playstyle, merely as another string to their bow. It could also  leave a question mark , fairly or not, over the heads of players who genuinely enjoy completing stories, and might have people questioning their motives or crying favouritism.

For these reasons, I think the system should stay as it is. As we have seen just today, closures are received positively by the community and give people a chance to reflect on the stories that were told together.

Hopefully we will share many more :)
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 14, 2018, 09:00:08 AM
I relish conflict-heavy stories. I don’t necessarily mean CvC or PvP in that, but if everything is going wonderfully for a character, while a nice change of pace for me, it can be dull to play for extended periods. I am not saying I need death and explosions everywhere, but having difficulties, trials and gnawing questions to answer make a character much more interesting to play, in my mind.

Coincidentally, I was asking another player whether she wanted anything "bad" to happen to her character only last night because of my own attitude toward Iridni and this same paradox. On the one hand, I like her very much and am very protective of her. I want her to be happy. I almost feel guilty for putting her in risky situations as though she is doing whatever I tell her and trusting me to look out for her...yet here I go betraying that trust in a way. I mean, in Barovia, everyone knows you don't go out at night!

But on the other hand, I don't want her to be a pampered and spoiled little princess who never experiences any hardship. She needs to prove what she has inside her, as well as generally grow up. And that can be accomplished only by "having difficulties and trials."
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: MJ_Johansson on February 14, 2018, 09:16:44 AM
Well, I'll say that closuring my main was the best decision I ever made. While I loved playing that char, having felt what it's like to give up a char you love made me less scared of taking risks on other chars.

I dont think we need any sort of rewards for a closure to be honest. If the char had enough impact or was famous enough the signs will be there in the PCs that remember them. I closured some minor chars here and there, but closuring out your first "main character" is a big one I think. Once you get past that hurdle it seems less scary to lose your character, to me at least.

It -is- hard for me to get into a new char though, I take a long time to figure out who a character should be or if I even like them, and even longer to get involved in any RP if my character doesnt already know people but, I have come to realize that's also a good thing. When you get through those first moments, at least for those of us who struggle with them, and find your footing on a new char, you get to experience the server in whole new ways, that in itself is a reward which you earn for yourself by commiting to a new char.

My two cents, anyway.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Time_Stomped on March 01, 2018, 01:41:44 PM
A major problem with this theoretical perk system is that you have the whole gauging the rewards on an already arbitrary judgement of a powergrinded low-involved 20 that sat on the shelf for years until now vs. the 10 level high-involved vs. the 15 medium-involved that died before these perks happened vs. the same but with MPC closures vs. the level 8 that has 50 skill in almost all of the crafts vs. THE GUARDA LADUL YOU THINK YOU SHOULD GET PERKS OUTLANDERS LABUL WHERE IS MY PIMP ASS STARTING A LANCE CORPORAL AND 20k in THE BANK LADUL TELL ME YOU FILTHY WITCHY FEYBLOODED PC USERS.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Mentfrost on March 01, 2018, 08:03:50 PM
what
Title: Re: Suggestion: Application For Closured Character "Perks"
Post by: Arawn on March 01, 2018, 08:20:13 PM
I think this thread has run its course.