Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Song of Danta on March 25, 2016, 12:12:01 AM
-
I did indeed post this in the wrong section...
When selecting the Gothic Earth (Masque of the Red Death) background, would it be possible to add something along these lines to the confirmation/information dialogue:
'IMPORTANT: CHARACTERS FROM GOTHIC EARTH CANNOT SPEAK THE COMMON LANGUAGE.'
Then, possibly...
'If your character arrived in a domain other than the default (Barovia), they may have learned it (or the local language) there.'
Often, people don't seem aware of this matter, and end up disappointed (not to mention, embarrassed) and quit the character once they find out (usually from a DM). It's awkward to find an excuse if your character has said the mists took them just the other week, and they have been speaking common since then. I've had to very apologetically mention this to around 5-6 players so far, and have also goofed up myself when I first made a GE character. With the NCE coming up in a few days, I think this is a good idea.
-
I would be happy if this rule got removed, its kind of stupid. If it is going to exist, I suggest getting rid of common for everyone. just my thoughts.
-
This rule is not going to be removed, and that is a good idea, Danta. It will be implemented.
-
I agree that this is a great idea. When I first played a GE character on here I took on the struggle to learn Common in-game actively and it was an enormous struggle, but quite fun. This helps folk who want to do that as well know that their roleplay is supported but that they have other options if they prefer to skip that step.
-
It's a hurdle, but not an impossible one. You will find people willing to RP the language barrier, and you will find those willing to teach the Common tongue eventually. Use that high INT and be studious! Gothic Earth... (and our real Earth, haha) has a wonderful history, and it can make for very detailed and interesting characters! Don't let the language barrier discourage you... use it as an RP element!
-
It's a hurdle, but not an impossible one. You will find people willing to RP the language barrier, and you will find those willing to teach the Common tongue eventually. Use that high INT and be studious! Gothic Earth... (and our real Earth, haha) has a wonderful history, and it came make for very detailed and interesting characters! Don't let the language barrier discourage you... use it as an RP element!
Indeed! It is challenging, no doubt, but quite fun for those who enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, don't do it.
-
This helps folk who want to do that as well know that their roleplay is supported but that they have other options if they prefer to skip that step.
Having played several characters with language barriers (and speech impediments), I can't really be stuffed any more, so I usually use the spat-out-in-another-domain story. Another option would be that they have been around for some time already, though as a commoner rather than an adventurer.
:D
-
Guess that's one language the new language system doesn't cover. Common would take an extra language slot. Must be hard to police this except for very low levels.
Maybe revise it so that everyone gets the [Co] language for free except Gothic Earth characters?
-
It's a hurdle, but not an impossible one. You will find people willing to RP the language barrier, and you will find those willing to teach the Common tongue eventually. Use that high INT and be studious! Gothic Earth... (and our real Earth, haha) has a wonderful history, and it came make for very detailed and interesting characters! Don't let the language barrier discourage you... use it as an RP element!
Indeed! It is challenging, no doubt, but quite fun for those who enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, don't do it.
Just out of curiosity (mostly), does the option to not pursue learning Common from scratch allow someone to possibly use the Biographies section to jot down journal entries for a character's life prior to their actual in-game creation? Perhaps as something to explain how they reached their first two character levels and to give a background for their learning of languages, etc? It would also add some flavour to any other players interested in seeing the character in-game?
If this isn't against any forum/server rules I may do this for my NCE character.
-
...Ah hell.
I recommended Gothic Earth to a completely new player. They've never player DnD before and are a complete and total absolute newbie to all things Ravenloft - and every other setting too. They do however have a Nordic background and were looking to play a druid as it was something they were comfortable playing. Except now they don't know common. As someone starting from a position of absolute zero and with no knowledge of any settings to use, I thought GE was the best selection, but this is probably going to make it too hard for them to play the concept now. I wasn't aware of this as I've encountered GE characters before who did speak common.
Great. Now that doesn't work at all. :(
-
You could suggest that they have been around the core for a while enough to have a decent grasp on common?
-
You could suggest that they have been around the core for a while enough to have a decent grasp on common?
But then they would also possess the knowledge of the Core which the selection of Gothic Earth as a background was intended to avoid.
-
You could suggest that they have been around the core for a while enough to have a decent grasp on common?
But then they would also possess the knowledge of the Core which the selection of Gothic Earth as a background was intended to avoid.
Good point. Perhaps they could just know about one place? Give the players a chance to have common and less to read up on?
-
You could suggest that they have been around the core for a while enough to have a decent grasp on common?
But then they would also possess the knowledge of the Core which the selection of Gothic Earth as a background was intended to avoid.
Good point. Perhaps they could just know about one place? Give the players a chance to have common and less to read up on?
But now that's basically the same as playing a native of a domain other than Barovia.
-
My thoughts on it are this simply, Common, or Trade tongue seems to be incredibly easy to learn, like ridiculously easy since almost everyone get it. Maybe thats something to mull over, make it easier for a GE character to pick up?
-
My two pence is, if you're so concerned over the difficulty of playing a Gothic Earth character, why are you playing one to begin with? Not trying to sound mean, saying that now before I'm lynched, but the whole point of playing an outlander is to be completely new to the Mists. Just as caliban is hard mode for natives, half orcs, subraces, and Gothic Earth is hard mode for outlanders.
-
My two pence is, if you're so concerned over the difficulty of playing a Gothic Earth character, why are you playing one to begin with? Not trying to sound mean, saying that now before I'm lynched, but the whole point of playing an outlander is to be completely new to the Mists. Just as caliban is hard mode for natives, half orcs, subraces, and Gothic Earth is hard mode for outlanders.
Gothic Earth is also actually an easy setting for people new to DnD in general to pick, Id rather more people pick Earth, the place they know, then misrepresent other settings because they dont know them, simply because its too hard.
-
I honestly wasn't aware of the 'no common' rule. And like I said, this person has no experience with any of the established settings whatsoever - but wanted to try nordic druid. Like I said, total newbie, giving it their first try. I thought I was helping >_<
-
I posted just now on another thread the following, but I should have posted it in this one instead. See below:
So basically, no gothic earth character can start with common?
Practically speaking, yes, they can't. But technically the answer could be maybe. Though very few do, demihumans exist in Gothic Earth after having been sucked into it via the Shadow Plane, similar to how the mists grab people for the Demiplane of Dread. These demihumans can come from any D&D world, such as Faerun. From the PoTM forum's Gothic Earth resource thread:
These beings, now trapped on the Gothic Earth, are known as the Shadowkind. ... A character who begins play as a newly arrived Shadowkind knows one or more languages, most of which are not spoken on Earth. Such languages include Celestial, Draconic, Elven, and Goblin. However, they all share a common language (called Common) that has striking parallels to the predominant language spoken in the area where they arrived. Shadowkind characters born and raised in our world gain languages as human characters do. In addition to one or more local languages, they may know one or more languages of Shadow (taught to them by their parents and elders)."
So demihumans and those with partial demihuman ancestry in Gothic Earth can know languages spoken in other planes, including D&D Common. Furthermore, it is also possible for full humans of Gothic Earth to have learned these languages too.
Natives of the Gothic Earth — human and Shadowkind alike — can learn new Shadow languages only after they are exposed to them; they can’t master them spontaneously. To learn Draconic, for example, a character must spend time with creatures that speak Draconic or find someone with access to the written language (Draconic “books on tape” or ancient texts written using the Draconic alphabet, for example). Certain Shadowkind know languages commonly spoken among members of their species, and all characters may study and learn new Shadow languages...
I would guess, however, that it is far more likely for a Gothic Earth human to arrive through the Mist knowing Elven or some other racial language rather than Common, which is not really part of any demihuman's heritage. It is unlikely that passing on Common to descendants and allies on Gothic Earth would have been a high priority among Shadowkind, whereas a racial language would be a matter of pride.
EDIT: It is also arguable that the knowledge of D&D Common that demihumans possessed has been warped by coming to Gothic Earth, as it says that the language resembles the tongue of any nations they find themselves in. So, honestly, already knowing Common seems to not be an option for Gothic Earth characters, but knowing racial tongues such Elven, Dwarven, etc. would be possible.
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=21168.0
-
...Ah hell.
I recommended Gothic Earth to a completely new player. They've never player DnD before and are a complete and total absolute newbie to all things Ravenloft - and every other setting too. They do however have a Nordic background and were looking to play a druid as it was something they were comfortable playing. Except now they don't know common. As someone starting from a position of absolute zero and with no knowledge of any settings to use, I thought GE was the best selection, but this is probably going to make it too hard for them to play the concept now. I wasn't aware of this as I've encountered GE characters before who did speak common.
Great. Now that doesn't work at all. :(
Maybe make them use old english? :)
-
Any update on whether this was implemented? :D
-
I think OE is old English. MoE is Modern English.
-
Any update on whether this was implemented? :D
Whether what was implemented?
-
I did indeed post this in the wrong section...
When selecting the Gothic Earth (Masque of the Red Death) background, would it be possible to add something along these lines to the confirmation/information dialogue:
'IMPORTANT: CHARACTERS FROM GOTHIC EARTH CANNOT SPEAK THE COMMON LANGUAGE.'
Then, possibly...
'If your character arrived in a domain other than the default (Barovia), they may have learned it (or the local language) there.'
Often, people don't seem aware of this matter, and end up disappointed (not to mention, embarrassed) and quit the character once they find out (usually from a DM). It's awkward to find an excuse if your character has said the mists took them just the other week, and they have been speaking common since then. I've had to very apologetically mention this to around 5-6 players so far, and have also goofed up myself when I first made a GE character. With the NCE coming up in a few days, I think this is a good idea.
This rule is not going to be removed, and that is a good idea, Danta. It will be implemented.
-
No, I haven't got to this yet, but a reminder is good.
-
Bumping this for the NCE, since the ruling does tend to get forgotten or overlooked!
-
Out of curiosity, let's assume that our character just doesn't quite break the border on the language barrier, you make a new dude, whatever. Let's say he's from Italy, Germany, France, Mudda Rusha, you get the idea.
Now, let's assume he's German.
Ye?
And he meets a Falkovnian. Now, of course, Falkovnian is not-German for Core people, but everyone will go, "Ja, bitte," if they say, "Yes, please," or... "Scheiße!" for their more coarse language. Let's say you're playing this German, and of course, his native tongue gets peppered in with, or completely is used in lieu of common.
And you walk down the road, you're interacting with someone, and a Falkovnian player walks up.
"Hallo! Wie geht's dir?" If he's super-dedicated. There's immediately an incredibly awkward moment of either, "Yes, we're using the same Real-Life language, but mine actually represents my fake language that's using German as it's linguistic representative."
It's not incredibly conducive. Similarly, let's just say we play an old-school Russian or Romanian. Everyone's going to think you're a local at a glance, even if you're an Outlander. Seems like it'd lead to a lot of awkward... "[Tell] I'm actually a German/Russian/Romanian, from GE. Not a local. You don't know what he's saying."
What is the official ruling on how to make this less complicated? Because theoretically, they're not even the same language. Unless somehow they have similar roots and it's ruled that they can roughly understand each other.
-
Just confirm by sending a tell.
I tend to speak entirely in language tags if using a GE language that has a Ravenloft parallel to avoid confusion, and include in an emote that the character is speaking in a foreign tongue from beyond the Core if I wish to say something outside of the tags.
It's not usually a problem, though, as I stick to GE characters from unusual places.
Consider putting a note in your character's biography in-game, too.
-
I sort've assumed as much. I was just pointing out the silliness.
-
Bumping.
The addition of the warning is still needed.
-
If GE characters cannot speak common, would the common tongue be uncommon to natives of the core in Ravenloft? I did some searching, and came up with this:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Common_(Language)
"Common is an almost universal language spoken on many outlander worlds. The natives of the Land of Mists do not enjoy such a boon; instead a variety of domain-specific tongues are spoken." It's cited as canon. I can't find the particular "source", as I don't have any sourcebooks on hand.
Can any of the DMs explain this? Would it be such a case to say that common was brought from Outlander worlds? Would it be common to say that most natives would have to learn that also.
Looking for some clarification.
Meanwhile, RPing my character learning "words good"...
-
There is a provided optional variant to the rules for the Ravenloft Campaign Setting that state a DM may choose to have Common exist as the lingua franca of the Demiplane. We choose to use that variant.
-
Thanks for the answer, I wasn't sure. Glad to know that option is available. It solves a lot of problems. Perhaps a server character creation warning for the characters unable to speak common is a good option for those starting under Gothic Earth
-
I'll add a mention about that in the Character Creation conversation.
-
Thank you EO.
-
This just seems to me like another unnecessary barrier being put in the way of people interacting with one another.
-
This just seems to me like another unnecessary barrier being put in the way of people interacting with one another.
By that token, so is caliban OCR. It's part of the setting, and you can choose to play these characters or not; no one is forcing you. If you're interested in that kind of roleplay it's there; if not, don't do it.
-
This just seems to me like another unnecessary barrier being put in the way of people interacting with one another.
By that token, so is caliban OCR. It's part of the setting, and you can choose to play these characters or not; no one is forcing you. If you're interested in that kind of roleplay it's there; if not, don't do it.
Not really, this is totally different. Your asking people to pretend their own character can't understand what is the closest thing you can possibly get to being english. The same should go for native Ravenloft characters, but that has been side stepped for convenience, but Gothic on the other hand, no such luck. OK I understand technically its cannon and it's part of the setting, and its great that no one is forcing anyone to play this out, but you can't say that this isn't a major obstacle.
-
Common has nothing to do with being english actually. From the Faerun varient:
Common was little more than a trade language; that is, it was not useful for complicated topics. It was simple and not very expressive as a language....
Common developed directly from Thorass, or "Old Common", which was itself a pidgin variant of the Jhaamdathan language ("Old Chondathan") and Alzhedo.
Greyhawk has it listed as this:
Common is a hybrid language, a combination of the dialect of Old Oeridian spoken in the Great Kingdom and Ancient Baklunish. It is the trade tongue of the Flanaess.
Obviously this differs slightly between settings but unless i am mistaken the general principal is the same. Common, or the trade tongue. is a hodgepodge of usefull words from multiple roots that can be used to express simpmle ideas like directions, trade, requests.
In any case as i remember it Gothic earth specificly states there is no common tongue, where ravenloft rules allow for the addition of one at the DM's discretion.
-
It's as urathvariel says. Ravenloft has a provided option in the campaign setting; GE specifically does not have Common. In any case, that's how it is and we have no intention of changing it.
-
It gets a little tricky playing a GE character but ove went through at least two weeks of rp before understanding simple things, about 2 months more before speaking somewhat and half a year before being fluent. I did have a month or so of a break where i did not play him which made it hard for me to say where he went from just understanding somewhat and understanding well. The hardest part with it was not learning commong or not understanding. That was easy to rp. The hard part was how to go from somewhat speaking a language to being "fluent".
-
Asmund refuses to speak in his native tongue (partly because his 10 in int won't allow it). None the less, it's been a long road for both him and Hjorta to master common. It's a great experience to rp learning common. I see no issue having to do it.
-
Common has nothing to do with being english actually. From the Faerun varient:
Common was little more than a trade language; that is, it was not useful for complicated topics. It was simple and not very expressive as a language....
Common developed directly from Thorass, or "Old Common", which was itself a pidgin variant of the Jhaamdathan language ("Old Chondathan") and Alzhedo.
Greyhawk has it listed as this:
Common is a hybrid language, a combination of the dialect of Old Oeridian spoken in the Great Kingdom and Ancient Baklunish. It is the trade tongue of the Flanaess.
Obviously this differs slightly between settings but unless i am mistaken the general principal is the same. Common, or the trade tongue. is a hodgepodge of usefull words from multiple roots that can be used to express simpmle ideas like directions, trade, requests.
In any case as i remember it Gothic earth specificly states there is no common tongue, where ravenloft rules allow for the addition of one at the DM's discretion.
In reality common has everything to do with being english, because that's how its actually spoken. Did you understand what I was trying to say?
-
Yes, they did understand. Simply put, what we see on the screen and what is 'said', if it was actual reality is not what would be 'heard'. Common is not conventional real world 'English'. It is merely typed as such out convenience.
-
Yes, they did understand. Simply put, what we see on the screen and what is 'said', if it was actual reality is not what would be 'heard'. Common is not conventional real world 'English'. It is merely typed as such out convenience.
This is it exactly. if we were a predominatly spanish speaking server, for example. That wouldnt make common akin to spanish.
-
Right. Common isn't English. Balok isn't Romanian. Mordentish isn't French. None of the languages of Ravenloft, though inspired by various real-world analogues are actually those languages. Which means if you're from GE and you're French, you still can't understand a Mordentish speaker. I know it can be confusing, but sadly that's just the way it is. If you really want to play a character from GE and skip the whole language barrier thing, couldn't you just start your character off knowing one and claim you've been in the Core for a year or whatever amount of time is logical for you to learn a new language?
-
Just giving this a bump: will the notification upon character creation be implemented with the coming hak update?
Original post was over a year ago and people are still making this error.
-
Just giving this a bump: will the notification upon character creation be implemented with the coming hak update?
Original post was over a year ago and people are still making this error.
Even worse. Upon the update, GE characters will not only be unable to speak without language tags unless they know Common, they will not be allowed to add Common as their first language, since they have to have their native language. Warning! This means GE characters with low INT (<12) will never be able to speak without language tags!
-
Sick. Thanks Arawn. This is a neat solution.
:rock:
-
WOW, now that's a hardcore solution!